myflat6

I was reviewing North American production numbers for non-turbo models and was surprised to see that there were as many Carrera 3.2 cars sold/produced as the 964 and 993 combined!

RobertPaulson

Central banks are devaluing cash in an effort to inflate away government debt and stave off deflation, these efforts are leaking out into the price anything of fixed supply that is 'Desirable'. Price momentum and the taxable status of alot of these assets brings another set of interests to join the party too.

Bud Taylor

That being said 1st 100k and I will walk as I will be scared to drive it and no longer be anle to afford
the insurance. It is kind of nice to have a car that is 25 years old and needs nothing. I wonder if the 997's will last that long and still be as solid ?

Paolo1

"I find most talk about air cooled 911's seem to omit the 993 from the conversation". I am not sure what conversations you are referring to...

NoleenELT

I also found this strange:

"The 964 is the last of the original lines of the 911 and the last of the true sports car feel the 993 is so much more of a GT car than the 964."

993Targaman

Does the lower production numbers of the 964 make the cars more valuable than the 993s?

FlatSix911

The production numbers look similar for both the 964 and 993 ... 69K vs. 70K from 1990 - 1994 and 1995 -1998.

Super90

When looking at the Coupes in the U.S., seems the numbers get interesting, especially when this doesn't delineate the C4's versus C2's and the Tips versus Manual. Looks like C2 Coupes with manual transmission in the U.S. has lower numbers than one might first imagine.

cobalt

Most of the threads here and on other forums. The 993 has always been apart from the others de to its change from the standard looks.
These numbers are so far off it is ridiculous and there is a huge difference between US and ROW production. In the US we primarily focus on the US spec cars which also include distribution to Canada and other surrounding countries.

This chart needs to be discarded. It is completely wrong double counts many cars and has been corrected many times since it was compiled.

AFAIK the only two numbers correct here for US market are the 1 America GS and the 20 1992 turbo S cars. For US production it should read closer to these for the NB coupes only this is US spec so all cars sold to Canada and surrounding countries buying US spec cars came from these:

1989 C4.............1057 units
1990 C2/C4 all....1257
1991 C2/C4 all....686
1992 C2/C4 all....655
1993 C2/C4 all....460
1994 C2..............130+/- The number he gives includes the widebody C4 but you need to get the exact numbers from the turbo Look registry to get it correct. IIRC he stated some 267 or close were produced for the US.


I went over this with Adrian back in the day and he amended his book and still had it wrong. He did a great job with what he had to work with but so much more has been learned since. All US MY vin numbers begin with xxx61 and not xxxx1 as he states. These numbers also have a fair number of double counted M718 coded cars that will bring it down even further but to figure that out will take a lot of research so these will do for comparison. I am using these numbers to show how many less were made than he stated but the number is actually less than what I posted.

This also applies to the remaining Coupes and targas and the turbos which are considerably less than he had noted (ie there were only 350 US spec turbo 3.6's imported in stock form vs the 466 he has noted)

Total narrow body production minus the RSA including all narrow body C2/C4 both manual and tiptronic transmission is only 4245 units vs the 6306 Adrian had listed. A fair guess is about half were C2 the other half C4's brings it down closer to 2000 of each now subtract how many tips were made of each it leaves very few if you are looking for a C2 or C4 coupe. Now consider how many were tracked, totalled, scrapped for parts, Singer and RWB builds etc etc. This leaves very few 964's in the US. No doubt there are a considerable amount made for the ROW market it doesn't do us much good here in the US. If you want the more desireable 92-94 MY That leaves less than roughly 600 of each including tips and by now there are very few still around I know of a bunch of 93's and 94 C2's that were totalled at the track. When you think of it the numbers are not far off the RSA for total production of 92-94 C2's and there are probably less left than of the RSA's

When you look at these numbers there were more 993 cabs and nearly as many 993TT's made as were 964 C2's in total. The 964 is no doubt the rarest of the US spec air cooled LWB cars

Jjm4life

Off topic.. I've always wondered how different a 92-94 is than my 90.. Especially given all the updates I've done to the suspension and transmission.
Can a 89-91 be made into a 92+?

cobalt

The differences are subtle but considerable. As I built my track car I noticed that a number of smaller parts were incompatible. Many changes were made most all of which are small but considerable to swap. Simple things like the single spring wiper arms were switched to double spring. The indents on the side of the tub were increased in size for the rocker panel clips. Aluminum vs magnesium valve covers. CCU, latches for the alarm system frunk and engine lid inner trim pieces. Rear seat locks went to top button versus lower pull lever. I could probably compile a list of 100 or so different items changed. Some make a difference others were done and followed through to the 993. Even as late as half way through 1994 changes were still being made. Different glove box that doesn't sag on one side, door seals, door latches and so much more.

There are a lot of things you can upgrade but it is not necessary and the things that make a bigger impact have either been updated to most by now or cannot be changed. It shouldn't make a difference they were all good cars but they just fixed a lot of little issues with the later cars, most wouldn't even know that changes were made until I point them out.

The whole late MY production vs early became a thing years ago. IMO it is as much of a difference between a C2 vs an RSA and shouldn't matter but does to some.

Super90

Thanks for all that insight Anthony. Very interesting !

Jjm4life

Thanks for the info cobalt. So in my case, nothing I'm concerned with.

FlatSix911

Anthony,
Can you confirm your ROW and USA 964 numbers with specific citations ... many conflicting claims here.

cobalt

I had this argument with Norbert a while back and he had supplied me with direct access to the Porsche database. I was the one who discovered that the first 60 vin numbers do not exist for any MY vin from Porsche for the US. I ran vin numbers for US spec cars only which is what i am addressing. I also ran threads asking rennlist members to list vin numbers for the 3.6T. I was trying to determine the overlap of the M718 coded turbos which shows that the vins up to 288 were P coded tubs with R coded engines and tranny. The remaining 118 were R coded tubs with R coded engines and tranny and included the 39 flachbau turbo S and 17 turbo S package cars as confirmed by flachbau.com. Initially Adrian had these listed as 288 made for 1993 and 466 made for 1994. We know that the last turbos made had vin numbers up to and including #466 and that no cars with vin numbers up through 60 exist and no number above 466 exists.

In every case if I punched in a vin below xxx61 it showed up as not valid along with any vins above what numbers Adrian had listed as the final vin number. I verified my cars and all options came up as correct so I have no doubt that the info was authentic. This is also verified by the 928 registry which has all vin numbers of every 928 imported to the US and not a single 928 MY has a vin between xxxx1 and xxx61. Apparently the first 60 vin numbers for US spec cars are required to be tested as test mules for each MY model with a specific vin number. Whether they actually tested these cars or just skipped over the numbers is yet to be determined.

There are also a number of M718 coded cars that are not documented but in every case that Adrian was not aware of it was double counted as he had initially done with the US spec 94 turbo 3.6.

I have been doing research on this for over 10 years and there are number of threads that will corroborate what I stated as true. If you can find any 964 with a vin between xxxx1 and xxx61 I would be interested in seeing it but I am sure they do not exist.

Also don't forget the numbers I posted include some of the rare cars like the America roadster for 1992 the 1 off America GS the Carrera Cup cars and Turbo S2 as these are part of the standard vin numbers and should be counted and subtracted from the totals. So as I said the numbers I posted are not even correct and should be less in total. We need to have a published chart that is accurate there has been a lot of false info being spread around for a long time.