964 TT build - Need help with gearbox choice/ratios
10-22-2014, 06:58 AM
#301
Hehehe...just got the results...
700Nm/550hp straight lines, no more zig zags in the graph! (air/fuel ratio)
This is really good news. The torque comes in sooner and all in all the engine is as strong as it can possibly be now.
Injectors are at 93% and the intercooler is the other bottleneck.
According to Pieter at DP Engineering the turbos are outdated as well. They could possibly be replaced to get the power much sooner, perhaps even 1500-2000rpm sooner.
But the first thing I am doing now is getting a 90L fuel tank installed and then DP will install an alcohol sensor and map the engine for anything up to E85 fuel. This is the best possible upgrade, engine will run cooler and we can advance the ignition some.
Anyway, I'll post some before and after results (graphs).
Mapping has been done three times now:
1. TTP- Engine ran great but had some quirks. Knocking and running VERY lean in the high RPM's. Not good for the longevity of the engine, it was going towards a quick death.
2. TVS- Installed larger injectors and redid the Motronic. No more knocking, not lean but power gone. It still had the HP in the high RPM but the character of the wild willing engine was totally gone. The graph showed less torque, especially in the lower RPM this difference was substantial. Probably had mostly to do with the advance of the ignition. TVS build in a huge safety factor and killed the character.
3. DP- Installed VEMS, two multiband lambda sensors, inlet temp sensor and a boost controller. Pieter said they are able to program thousands of instructions in the VEMS which would take months if you would try to do the same with the Motronic. Original numbers are back but higher torque at lower RPM. Engine should be even crazier than at step 1. No knocking, not too lean, straight air/fuel ratio lines, all good.
I'll do some videos soon. Saturday I'm at the Zandvoort track here in The Netherlands and although rain is forecasted I am hoping for some dry moments.
700Nm/550hp straight lines, no more zig zags in the graph! (air/fuel ratio)
This is really good news. The torque comes in sooner and all in all the engine is as strong as it can possibly be now.
Injectors are at 93% and the intercooler is the other bottleneck.
According to Pieter at DP Engineering the turbos are outdated as well. They could possibly be replaced to get the power much sooner, perhaps even 1500-2000rpm sooner.
But the first thing I am doing now is getting a 90L fuel tank installed and then DP will install an alcohol sensor and map the engine for anything up to E85 fuel. This is the best possible upgrade, engine will run cooler and we can advance the ignition some.
Anyway, I'll post some before and after results (graphs).
Mapping has been done three times now:
1. TTP- Engine ran great but had some quirks. Knocking and running VERY lean in the high RPM's. Not good for the longevity of the engine, it was going towards a quick death.
2. TVS- Installed larger injectors and redid the Motronic. No more knocking, not lean but power gone. It still had the HP in the high RPM but the character of the wild willing engine was totally gone. The graph showed less torque, especially in the lower RPM this difference was substantial. Probably had mostly to do with the advance of the ignition. TVS build in a huge safety factor and killed the character.
3. DP- Installed VEMS, two multiband lambda sensors, inlet temp sensor and a boost controller. Pieter said they are able to program thousands of instructions in the VEMS which would take months if you would try to do the same with the Motronic. Original numbers are back but higher torque at lower RPM. Engine should be even crazier than at step 1. No knocking, not too lean, straight air/fuel ratio lines, all good.
I'll do some videos soon. Saturday I'm at the Zandvoort track here in The Netherlands and although rain is forecasted I am hoping for some dry moments.
Get some proper turbos and run the zeitronix ethanol analyser, or whatever DP will use, and enjoy some serious fun!!!
10-22-2014, 07:09 AM
#302
Three Wheelin'
Wow sounds like it will be fantastic to drive and great to hear VEMS did the job (mine is getting closer to being fitted).
Would be great to see some dyno plots for power, torque, along with the AFR curves if DP can provide them.
I like slightly old school turbo's, modern "instant spool" cars don't feel like a turbo at all and where's the fun in that? There are some tuners that will map a car to be slightly less responsive so the turbo kicks in harder and the car actually feels much more exciting - it's slower overall of course but more fun.
Would be great to see some dyno plots for power, torque, along with the AFR curves if DP can provide them.
I like slightly old school turbo's, modern "instant spool" cars don't feel like a turbo at all and where's the fun in that? There are some tuners that will map a car to be slightly less responsive so the turbo kicks in harder and the car actually feels much more exciting - it's slower overall of course but more fun.
10-22-2014, 08:38 AM
#305
Pro
Thread Starter
10-22-2014, 09:15 AM
#306
Rennlist Member
I say drive the wheels off of it as it sits, then after a year of driving your bad ***, properly tuned car, you'll know what direction you want to take everything. Hard to know the right course without getting a whole lot of seat time.
Oh ya... Awesome car dude
Oh ya... Awesome car dude
10-22-2014, 12:15 PM
#309
10-22-2014, 02:48 PM
#312
Great results!!!! The guy that pointed you towards DP should get a trophy;-)
Your injectors running 93% duty cycle as is should be changed to much higher capacity ones before starting any mapping on E85 actuallly makes sense, since ideal air/alcohol ratio's are much lower (more alcohol-less air) than air/fuel ratio.
Modern turbos might spool up sooner, on the other hand will give less of an instant shove in the back effect that is so cool....nothing....nothing....nothing.....hell breaks loose!!!;-)
If your turbos are well in their efficiency range at max torque and accordingly intake temps aren't going overboard I'd leave well enough alone!!! Thanks for sharing your journey. Enjoy the fc*k out of it in good health!!!
Your injectors running 93% duty cycle as is should be changed to much higher capacity ones before starting any mapping on E85 actuallly makes sense, since ideal air/alcohol ratio's are much lower (more alcohol-less air) than air/fuel ratio.
Modern turbos might spool up sooner, on the other hand will give less of an instant shove in the back effect that is so cool....nothing....nothing....nothing.....hell breaks loose!!!;-)
If your turbos are well in their efficiency range at max torque and accordingly intake temps aren't going overboard I'd leave well enough alone!!! Thanks for sharing your journey. Enjoy the fc*k out of it in good health!!!
10-23-2014, 05:31 PM
#313
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks guys, good stuff.
Picked up the car this morning and did some tests on the road with the laptop plugged in. The car is running GREAT!
It is so nice, I am seriously impressed. We did some small last adjustments until Pieter was happy with the numbers and I was off.
Drove around for hours, it is so nice to have my car back...
Talked some more turbo with Pieter and actually other turbos would just move the power curve down another 500-600rpm only. The current turbos are at 63% of their max so that is pretty nice as well.
For E85 injectors will have to change again, you are right evoderby. And I agree with you that the turbos coming in a little later is not a bad thing at all, I like it actually and I can deal with it.
For now lots of driving!
Picked up the car this morning and did some tests on the road with the laptop plugged in. The car is running GREAT!
It is so nice, I am seriously impressed. We did some small last adjustments until Pieter was happy with the numbers and I was off.
Drove around for hours, it is so nice to have my car back...
Talked some more turbo with Pieter and actually other turbos would just move the power curve down another 500-600rpm only. The current turbos are at 63% of their max so that is pretty nice as well.
For E85 injectors will have to change again, you are right evoderby. And I agree with you that the turbos coming in a little later is not a bad thing at all, I like it actually and I can deal with it.
For now lots of driving!
10-25-2014, 02:25 PM
#315
Intermediate
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Hello,
I like your very smooth way of solving problems with the build of the car.
In short time you have tried out 3 different electronic solutions and come to conclusions that make much sense! My compliments
Anyway I might doubt your HP figure for a 0,8 bar on 3,8 l aircooled 2 valve engine! A 993 tt with K16 would do 430 HP and not more. So I can't see why your engine will make 550 HP. The displacement difference makes up for about 20 HP only.
Maybe the solution is in what youself wrote already:
TTP suggested that the newer ECU solutions are weak in the knock sensor area when it comes to these cars. The Motronoc is known to be rock solid in this department, a nice safeguard for a highly tuned engine like this.
Thanks for your input everybody, I'll follow up when I have some news!
So be careful! Maybe your additional HP compared to a 993 Turbo is traded in by knocking occasionally. Or maybe your HP figures are just a bit optimistic, every tuner has an interested to publish as high HP as possible.
But 550 HP from 0,8 bar, I never heard of it! I would expect you needed 1,2 bar!
compliments again for the way you tackle problems!
Andreas
I like your very smooth way of solving problems with the build of the car.
In short time you have tried out 3 different electronic solutions and come to conclusions that make much sense! My compliments
Anyway I might doubt your HP figure for a 0,8 bar on 3,8 l aircooled 2 valve engine! A 993 tt with K16 would do 430 HP and not more. So I can't see why your engine will make 550 HP. The displacement difference makes up for about 20 HP only.
Maybe the solution is in what youself wrote already:
TTP suggested that the newer ECU solutions are weak in the knock sensor area when it comes to these cars. The Motronoc is known to be rock solid in this department, a nice safeguard for a highly tuned engine like this.
Thanks for your input everybody, I'll follow up when I have some news!
So be careful! Maybe your additional HP compared to a 993 Turbo is traded in by knocking occasionally. Or maybe your HP figures are just a bit optimistic, every tuner has an interested to publish as high HP as possible.
But 550 HP from 0,8 bar, I never heard of it! I would expect you needed 1,2 bar!
compliments again for the way you tackle problems!
Andreas