964 C4 vs Ferrari 348 TS
08-25-2011, 09:58 AM
#1
Race Car
Thread Starter
964 C4 vs Ferrari 348 TS
It was mentioned on the clock adjustment thread that a few people might be interested in a comparison between the 964 I sold last month and the Ferrari 348 TS that replaced it. I've not had the Ferrari all that long (2 weeks) although I have clocked up almost 1,000 miles so I can give some initial thoughts.
First, a little history about my 964 ownership since I haven't been as active on this forum for the last couple of years. It was a 90 model C4 (registered October 89), and a high mileage example - I bought it in Sept 2001 with 120k miles on the clock and it had recently had a top end rebuild. When I bought the car I knew little about them, and subsequently found it had several things that needed fixing (poor idle due to distributor caps, the known clock problem that meant my warning lights stayed on until 3k rpm, accelerometer was sticking which made hard braking very dangerous etc).
For about the first 5 years, the 964 was my daily car - and during the first years of ownership I spent a lot of money on it (partly trying to fix the above problems). Within the first year, I had added a cat bypass, replaced the wheels and fitted RUF suspension which transformed the car.
After about 5 years, the car became a weekend only car. Initially with a dull daily driver which meant the 964 was used as much as possible, right up to it's mileage limit (UK classic insurance). But two years ago, I bought the 996 turbo and the 964 use got less and less - and hence it eventually got sold.
My memory of the 964 is of an excellent car. It made enough power to always be fun, it was generally pretty reliable - especially for a car of it's age - and it was clearly very well built. Despite a reputation for understeer, I found the handling very good and very predictable. In just under 10 years of ownership I completed around 65k miles.
I've owned the 348 for around two weeks now - and although it's spent the last few days in my garage (traditional British summer means it's rained fairly non-stop) in the first 10 days of ownership I completed around 900 miles. So how does it compare?
First - it's probably worth summarising what I thought before I bought it. I've wanted a Ferrari for quite a while, and several years ago I considered selling the 964 and buying a 355. However, there were too many comments about reliability and build quality (from Ferrari owners forums) that made me feel I was selling a good car to buy a bad one. I shelved the whole idea at that time. This time it was different, since the 964 was being sold anyway - so it seemed a good chance to try a Ferrari for a while.
I like 355s - probably more than 348s from a styling point of view. However, I was concerned that they were a little too "new" - power steering, "normal" gearshift etc - and I didn't want something that would compete with the turbo as a daily car. I wanted something a bit more classic.
I saw 3 cars in one weekend, one of which was quite poor condition - two were pretty good. One tempted me - but I knew a dealer (who has a very good reputation) had two cars - a TS (targa) and a Spider (convertible) and I wanted to see them. The convertible was a later car - but I've never really liked soft tops and didn't really fall for it. The TS was in a different class from the other cars I'd seen - albeit with a price that reflected it, so I went home to sleep on it.
In fact - I had grave doubts. In the test drives (I drove 4 cars in total) I was pretty underwhelmed. I expected the 348 to have similar performance to the 964 but it felt very much slower - a very linear power delivery meant you got no kick as the revs climbed. Lack of power steering wasn't an issue - but the dog leg gearbox confused me, even in the higher gears where it really shouldn't make any difference. I considered shelving the whole idea again - but having slept on it I decided that a test drive is not a relaxing experience and I should give the car a chance. So I put a deposit on it. However, it meant I was quite apprehensive when I collected the car - and I also expected the car to break often, and be expensive to fix when it does.
I collected the car on a weekday - about 200 miles from home, and by chance the sun was shining. First shock was with fuel - the car was almost empty and it took £98 to fill it up (compared to about £70 for the 964). Having filled up the car several times since then, I'd say the Ferrari has a bigger tank but similar fuel consumption to the 964.
Once the car was warmed up, I floored it away from a roundabout, and suddenly it seemed worth every penny. The V8 sounded absolutely gorgeous. It was also noticeable that the gearshift felt quite natural straight away - it's a lot more relaxing driving a car that you own.
On the drive home, one thing was quickly apparent - the car tramlines very badly. 348s have a reputation for handling issues (there is one owner on the forums who has replaced just about every suspension / steering item / spoiler that you can imagine and is still not happy) - but this appears to be blamed mostly on high speed handling due to poor aerodynamic design (front end lift rather than downforce). I don't think that is really my issue - I don't consider 80 mph "high speed", and it's noticeable even at 30-40mph. The car does feel unsettled on poor road surfaces - which we have a lot of. However, part of the problem with that might be a side effect of my car being low mileage - the front tyres are dated Jan 1998! Getting replacements has been a problem - I can get fronts of one brand or rears of another brand, but can't currently get 4 of any brand. However - over the 900 miles I've found I've got used to the handling much more - so although it's unsettled I've realised it's not (usually) trying to kill me and can live with it. I may try to get tyres over the winter or when the current ones are worn - but either way, it certainly handles a lot different from a 4WD 911!
The car had an engine out / belt service before I collected it - and that did seem to perk up the performance a bit. It's still light years behind my 996 turbo but does feel like it would compare well to the 964 now. The 348 does rev higher too (think the red line is somewhere around 7,500 - 8,000) so you do need to rev it a bit more than a 964 anyway. Funnily enough, almost everybody expects a Ferrari - even a 19 year old one - to be faster than a Porsche, even a mapped 996 turbo, and they're surprised when you tell them it's not.
The build quality is clearly not up to the Porsche standard. One of my lower sill covers is not quite inline with the front wing (as in, the wing stands out a few mm further on one side). This is apparently because there are spacers to try and get all the bodywork inline and whoever had my sill covers off last didn't sort it out properly. I expected the targa roof to leak in the rain - and in my brief rain experience so far, it does - but only very slightly. However, the car leaks a little more from the door seal where the mirrors mount at the front of the window. The door seal rubber is crushed flat - and sadly, apparently the replacement from Ferrari is..... £4,000. I have found somebody who's apparently selling them for 1/20th of the price though so will probably order one from there soon and see if that solves the problem. It seems Ferrari prices will make Porsche look cheap - I know a new fog light (which houses the indicator) is £600. Let's hope mine don't break.
I half expected things to break on the car by now, even with just two weeks of ownership. But, so far it's behaved very well. I did have a faulty passenger window switch when I collected the car - and I've discovered that's a known weak point with the cars. There is a circular socket on the A pillar for the wiring from the door to plug into, and the wires are known to break here. Sure enough - I've got a broken wire - and evidence of some very poor repairs in the past - so I will resolve that his weekend.
I think Ferrari corrision protection may not be up to Porsche standards - or maybe the owners take less care of their cars. 964 are not rust proof - I had paint done to mine several times to cure the start of rust especially around the wing / bumper area. And maybe there are plenty of rusty 964s out there - but I was surprised that several of the 348s I saw had bubbling paint. Mine doesn't - it's in amazing condition - but it's also clearly had paint in the past. I have doubts about it standing up to a British winter, but it will spend most of it in the garage.
Driving the car is an amazing experience and very different from anything I've had before. The suspension is HARD - which I think also explains some of the handling issues, since any imperfection in the road upsets the entire car. I've had the alignment checked and everything is fine so I think it's just the nature of the beast.
The gear change needs some definite effort, and you really notice the lack of power steering when parking. But surprisingly, I like these aspects. It feels like a "real" car - and although I can't get in the 964 and do a comparison, it really does make the 996 turbo feel very strange. The turbo feels as high as a 4x4 when you get in it after the Ferrari - and everything feels so light that it almost feels "electric" - even the gear shifts.
Brakes on the 348 are very good - nice firm pedal and lots of stopping power. It has ABS, although I've not triggered it yet. I liked the brakes on the 964 as well, and I trusted them more - the 348 brakes feel slightly less predictable - almost like it can't decide quite how quickly it should be stopping if you brake hard. Might be that I have a brake issue, but since the car had all new pads, new rear discs and skimmed front discs and new brake lines before I bought it, there shouldn't be too much wrong.
Steering takes some getting used to. Lack of power steering means you need lots of effort at slow speed - but at motorway speeds, very little input is needed and this takes some getting used to. This also explains some of the tramline issues I had on the way home from collecting the car because it's very easy to over-correct before you get used to the car.
Interior is (in my opinion) a nicer place to be than the 964. The 964 interior always seemed quite dated to me - even when I bought the car in 2001. While the 348 is clearly not modern - I think it has aged much better, and has some nice touches (like the leather cover that folds down over the stereo).
Before I bought the car, I was very dubious - even current owners stated that the build quality was kit car like in some areas, that they were expensive to own and that they would break. And from a purely practical point of view I can see that the 964 was probably better in almost every respect. However - despite the fact that the 964 was a huge amount of fun, and a real drivers car in my opinion - the Ferrari seems to have something at a more emotional level. The 964 is very functional - and the Ferrari feels like build quality / practicality / functionality was all second to the whether it looked / sounded good.
The car attracts a LOT of attention. Everywhere you go, people will look as you go past and everywhere you stop people will comment on the car (so far all positive). It seems to attract lady pensioners in car parks which wasn't really what I had in mind but I guess it's a start...... At first, it's quite disconcerting but it's curious that everybody seems so positive about the cars. They really do seem to be something of an icon. People at work - including people who I'm sure have absolutely no interest in cars at all - are desperate for a ride in it. Because I owned the 964 - and know how good it was - and because I own the 996 turbo, which is certainly better in just about every way - it's curious to see how people react to the Ferrari while paying virtually no attention to the Porsche.
In summary - I currently love the car and am glad I bought it. I may change my mind when things break - especially if they break often, and are expensive - but time will tell. It is very different to the 964 and very different to anything I've driven before - but it does feel like a real event when you take it out.
I would add a final thought though, and that is that I've used the turbo for the last few days - and one thing spending 10 days in another car does teach you (even if that car is a Ferrari) - is that 996 turbo's are quite amazing, and very quick. I think the 996 turbo and the 348 are going to complement each other very well indeed.
First, a little history about my 964 ownership since I haven't been as active on this forum for the last couple of years. It was a 90 model C4 (registered October 89), and a high mileage example - I bought it in Sept 2001 with 120k miles on the clock and it had recently had a top end rebuild. When I bought the car I knew little about them, and subsequently found it had several things that needed fixing (poor idle due to distributor caps, the known clock problem that meant my warning lights stayed on until 3k rpm, accelerometer was sticking which made hard braking very dangerous etc).
For about the first 5 years, the 964 was my daily car - and during the first years of ownership I spent a lot of money on it (partly trying to fix the above problems). Within the first year, I had added a cat bypass, replaced the wheels and fitted RUF suspension which transformed the car.
After about 5 years, the car became a weekend only car. Initially with a dull daily driver which meant the 964 was used as much as possible, right up to it's mileage limit (UK classic insurance). But two years ago, I bought the 996 turbo and the 964 use got less and less - and hence it eventually got sold.
My memory of the 964 is of an excellent car. It made enough power to always be fun, it was generally pretty reliable - especially for a car of it's age - and it was clearly very well built. Despite a reputation for understeer, I found the handling very good and very predictable. In just under 10 years of ownership I completed around 65k miles.
I've owned the 348 for around two weeks now - and although it's spent the last few days in my garage (traditional British summer means it's rained fairly non-stop) in the first 10 days of ownership I completed around 900 miles. So how does it compare?
First - it's probably worth summarising what I thought before I bought it. I've wanted a Ferrari for quite a while, and several years ago I considered selling the 964 and buying a 355. However, there were too many comments about reliability and build quality (from Ferrari owners forums) that made me feel I was selling a good car to buy a bad one. I shelved the whole idea at that time. This time it was different, since the 964 was being sold anyway - so it seemed a good chance to try a Ferrari for a while.
I like 355s - probably more than 348s from a styling point of view. However, I was concerned that they were a little too "new" - power steering, "normal" gearshift etc - and I didn't want something that would compete with the turbo as a daily car. I wanted something a bit more classic.
I saw 3 cars in one weekend, one of which was quite poor condition - two were pretty good. One tempted me - but I knew a dealer (who has a very good reputation) had two cars - a TS (targa) and a Spider (convertible) and I wanted to see them. The convertible was a later car - but I've never really liked soft tops and didn't really fall for it. The TS was in a different class from the other cars I'd seen - albeit with a price that reflected it, so I went home to sleep on it.
In fact - I had grave doubts. In the test drives (I drove 4 cars in total) I was pretty underwhelmed. I expected the 348 to have similar performance to the 964 but it felt very much slower - a very linear power delivery meant you got no kick as the revs climbed. Lack of power steering wasn't an issue - but the dog leg gearbox confused me, even in the higher gears where it really shouldn't make any difference. I considered shelving the whole idea again - but having slept on it I decided that a test drive is not a relaxing experience and I should give the car a chance. So I put a deposit on it. However, it meant I was quite apprehensive when I collected the car - and I also expected the car to break often, and be expensive to fix when it does.
I collected the car on a weekday - about 200 miles from home, and by chance the sun was shining. First shock was with fuel - the car was almost empty and it took £98 to fill it up (compared to about £70 for the 964). Having filled up the car several times since then, I'd say the Ferrari has a bigger tank but similar fuel consumption to the 964.
Once the car was warmed up, I floored it away from a roundabout, and suddenly it seemed worth every penny. The V8 sounded absolutely gorgeous. It was also noticeable that the gearshift felt quite natural straight away - it's a lot more relaxing driving a car that you own.
On the drive home, one thing was quickly apparent - the car tramlines very badly. 348s have a reputation for handling issues (there is one owner on the forums who has replaced just about every suspension / steering item / spoiler that you can imagine and is still not happy) - but this appears to be blamed mostly on high speed handling due to poor aerodynamic design (front end lift rather than downforce). I don't think that is really my issue - I don't consider 80 mph "high speed", and it's noticeable even at 30-40mph. The car does feel unsettled on poor road surfaces - which we have a lot of. However, part of the problem with that might be a side effect of my car being low mileage - the front tyres are dated Jan 1998! Getting replacements has been a problem - I can get fronts of one brand or rears of another brand, but can't currently get 4 of any brand. However - over the 900 miles I've found I've got used to the handling much more - so although it's unsettled I've realised it's not (usually) trying to kill me and can live with it. I may try to get tyres over the winter or when the current ones are worn - but either way, it certainly handles a lot different from a 4WD 911!
The car had an engine out / belt service before I collected it - and that did seem to perk up the performance a bit. It's still light years behind my 996 turbo but does feel like it would compare well to the 964 now. The 348 does rev higher too (think the red line is somewhere around 7,500 - 8,000) so you do need to rev it a bit more than a 964 anyway. Funnily enough, almost everybody expects a Ferrari - even a 19 year old one - to be faster than a Porsche, even a mapped 996 turbo, and they're surprised when you tell them it's not.
The build quality is clearly not up to the Porsche standard. One of my lower sill covers is not quite inline with the front wing (as in, the wing stands out a few mm further on one side). This is apparently because there are spacers to try and get all the bodywork inline and whoever had my sill covers off last didn't sort it out properly. I expected the targa roof to leak in the rain - and in my brief rain experience so far, it does - but only very slightly. However, the car leaks a little more from the door seal where the mirrors mount at the front of the window. The door seal rubber is crushed flat - and sadly, apparently the replacement from Ferrari is..... £4,000. I have found somebody who's apparently selling them for 1/20th of the price though so will probably order one from there soon and see if that solves the problem. It seems Ferrari prices will make Porsche look cheap - I know a new fog light (which houses the indicator) is £600. Let's hope mine don't break.
I half expected things to break on the car by now, even with just two weeks of ownership. But, so far it's behaved very well. I did have a faulty passenger window switch when I collected the car - and I've discovered that's a known weak point with the cars. There is a circular socket on the A pillar for the wiring from the door to plug into, and the wires are known to break here. Sure enough - I've got a broken wire - and evidence of some very poor repairs in the past - so I will resolve that his weekend.
I think Ferrari corrision protection may not be up to Porsche standards - or maybe the owners take less care of their cars. 964 are not rust proof - I had paint done to mine several times to cure the start of rust especially around the wing / bumper area. And maybe there are plenty of rusty 964s out there - but I was surprised that several of the 348s I saw had bubbling paint. Mine doesn't - it's in amazing condition - but it's also clearly had paint in the past. I have doubts about it standing up to a British winter, but it will spend most of it in the garage.
Driving the car is an amazing experience and very different from anything I've had before. The suspension is HARD - which I think also explains some of the handling issues, since any imperfection in the road upsets the entire car. I've had the alignment checked and everything is fine so I think it's just the nature of the beast.
The gear change needs some definite effort, and you really notice the lack of power steering when parking. But surprisingly, I like these aspects. It feels like a "real" car - and although I can't get in the 964 and do a comparison, it really does make the 996 turbo feel very strange. The turbo feels as high as a 4x4 when you get in it after the Ferrari - and everything feels so light that it almost feels "electric" - even the gear shifts.
Brakes on the 348 are very good - nice firm pedal and lots of stopping power. It has ABS, although I've not triggered it yet. I liked the brakes on the 964 as well, and I trusted them more - the 348 brakes feel slightly less predictable - almost like it can't decide quite how quickly it should be stopping if you brake hard. Might be that I have a brake issue, but since the car had all new pads, new rear discs and skimmed front discs and new brake lines before I bought it, there shouldn't be too much wrong.
Steering takes some getting used to. Lack of power steering means you need lots of effort at slow speed - but at motorway speeds, very little input is needed and this takes some getting used to. This also explains some of the tramline issues I had on the way home from collecting the car because it's very easy to over-correct before you get used to the car.
Interior is (in my opinion) a nicer place to be than the 964. The 964 interior always seemed quite dated to me - even when I bought the car in 2001. While the 348 is clearly not modern - I think it has aged much better, and has some nice touches (like the leather cover that folds down over the stereo).
Before I bought the car, I was very dubious - even current owners stated that the build quality was kit car like in some areas, that they were expensive to own and that they would break. And from a purely practical point of view I can see that the 964 was probably better in almost every respect. However - despite the fact that the 964 was a huge amount of fun, and a real drivers car in my opinion - the Ferrari seems to have something at a more emotional level. The 964 is very functional - and the Ferrari feels like build quality / practicality / functionality was all second to the whether it looked / sounded good.
The car attracts a LOT of attention. Everywhere you go, people will look as you go past and everywhere you stop people will comment on the car (so far all positive). It seems to attract lady pensioners in car parks which wasn't really what I had in mind but I guess it's a start...... At first, it's quite disconcerting but it's curious that everybody seems so positive about the cars. They really do seem to be something of an icon. People at work - including people who I'm sure have absolutely no interest in cars at all - are desperate for a ride in it. Because I owned the 964 - and know how good it was - and because I own the 996 turbo, which is certainly better in just about every way - it's curious to see how people react to the Ferrari while paying virtually no attention to the Porsche.
In summary - I currently love the car and am glad I bought it. I may change my mind when things break - especially if they break often, and are expensive - but time will tell. It is very different to the 964 and very different to anything I've driven before - but it does feel like a real event when you take it out.
I would add a final thought though, and that is that I've used the turbo for the last few days - and one thing spending 10 days in another car does teach you (even if that car is a Ferrari) - is that 996 turbo's are quite amazing, and very quick. I think the 996 turbo and the 348 are going to complement each other very well indeed.
08-25-2011, 10:46 AM
#3
I didn't realize the targa top was so well integrated with the body. Any opportunity to take topless pics in between rain showers? The car, not you. Unless the name Dave can be used for hot females where you come from.
08-25-2011, 10:50 AM
#4
Race Car
Thread Starter
I'll try to get some topless pics at the weekend. They look better with the windows down - and since the broken wire is for the window, I need to fix that first.....
Last edited by DaveK; 08-25-2011 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Typo!
gorgeous car
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08-25-2011, 03:45 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Nice write up and what a sexy car... I've played with the 308GTS idea and shelved it for now. But I will never sell the 964 unless when they pry it out of my cold hands 
08-25-2011, 05:11 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
DaveK,
Thanks for the detailed comparison. I think the difference can be summarized as follows, the Ferrari is an Exotic car which explains the emotional response, the Porsche 964 is better engineered and built vehicle but not an Exotic.
I am totally crazy about the Ferrari 458 Italia so I totally get the F-car ownership thing.
Ricardo
Thanks for the detailed comparison. I think the difference can be summarized as follows, the Ferrari is an Exotic car which explains the emotional response, the Porsche 964 is better engineered and built vehicle but not an Exotic.
I am totally crazy about the Ferrari 458 Italia so I totally get the F-car ownership thing.
Ricardo
08-25-2011, 08:33 PM
#12
Dave - Great write up!
I've wondered about this specific comparison for a while. They're both of the same era and it always seemed natural that a review/ comparison of the two would be made. Alas I have yet to fall upon a recent magasine issue that does - I've searched. Thank you for your review, you've covered all I wanted to know.
I would have a 964 and 348 at the same time, even if only for a little while. Having both ends/ different 'philosophies' of sports cars of that era would be awesome. The endless going back and forth between the cars, would stir such wonderfully immense emotional conflicts as to which is best.
PS. Congratulations, beautiful car.
EDIT Just remembered this comparison test I had read! http://www.evo.co.uk/features/featur...petizione.html
I've wondered about this specific comparison for a while. They're both of the same era and it always seemed natural that a review/ comparison of the two would be made. Alas I have yet to fall upon a recent magasine issue that does - I've searched. Thank you for your review, you've covered all I wanted to know.
I would have a 964 and 348 at the same time, even if only for a little while. Having both ends/ different 'philosophies' of sports cars of that era would be awesome. The endless going back and forth between the cars, would stir such wonderfully immense emotional conflicts as to which is best.
PS. Congratulations, beautiful car.
EDIT Just remembered this comparison test I had read! http://www.evo.co.uk/features/featur...petizione.html
08-26-2011, 02:38 AM
#13
Race Car
Thread Starter
Tesco - but it's probably a while since I had to fill the 964 up, and rarely let it get as low as the 348 was. So it might be the case that it does cost similar amounts to fill them up - my perception was that the 348 takes more fuel but you may be right.
08-26-2011, 03:58 PM
#14
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Great story Dave. I've wanted a Ferrari for some 32 years now. Porsche won in the end and I'm happy for it. Just bought my 964. However, I could imagine that one will be in the driveway in the not to distant future.
I'm really keen to hear how your experience develops. Best of luck with the 348!
Cheers
Jason
I'm really keen to hear how your experience develops. Best of luck with the 348!
Cheers
Jason