Cure Garrett Turbo Oil Leaking Problem
04-08-2003, 11:16 PM
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Cure Garrett Turbo Oil Leaking Problem
After the installation of my Garrett turbo by SFR, my garage floor has never been the same. A major oil leak developed from the base of the turbo. For anyone that has a similar problem whith their Garrett turbo, the following is how I cured the problem.
This is a picture of the factory turbo mount. You can see a hole where the oil returns to the crank case. It is sealed with an o-ring.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate2.jpg" alt=" - " />
This is a picture of the Garrett turbo. "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?" This is the preverbial square peg in a round hole. The Garrett center section oil return hole is SQUARE and the base is narrower than the factory mount base.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate1.jpg" alt=" - " />
This is the paper gasket that SFR installed in a lame attempt to seal the oil return area. You can see the imprint of the o-ring on the paper gasket and the arrows point to the areas where the MAJOR oil leak developed. Also a paper gasket is a poor selection in this area. The heat generated by the exhaust dried out the paper and made it brittle. This picture shows the gasket in place on the turbo/motor mount. The arrows point to the failed areas.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate7.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here are the parts that I used to cure the oil leak problem. About $45 dollars material cost, 32 hours of my own labor and two weekends of not driving the 951. Thanks SFR.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate9.jpg" alt=" - " />
The aluminum plate you see here was fabricated at S-CarGo Racing. It is installed onto the turbo/motor mount to provide a seal at the o-ring and to provide a new flat surface for the narrower/square holed/ turbo base. I first thought to weld up the groove and eliminate the o-ring, but S-CarGo thought that it would warp the aluminum mount.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate3.jpg" alt=" - " />
With the plate in position, this is the gasket I used to seal the turbo base to the plate. It is a factory part (#930 107 116 01) that is used on the 911 turbo. It is not a paper gasket, but is the same material that the exhaust doughnuts are made from. Perfect for use in a high heat environment. Here is the gasket in place on the Garrett turbo base. You can see that the gasket will allow oil to flow through the square hole without impediment, yet still seal any leak.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate4.jpg" alt=" - " />
And finally the stack on the Garrett turbo. Well you get the picture.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate6.jpg" alt=" - " />
My garage floor is now back to a spot free condition. The underside of my 951 (after more hours of cleaning) is free of its layer of oil. And my motor is once again drip free.
Hopefully this helps anyone that has a Garrett turbo with a leaking base. And for those of you that plan to purchase a Garrett turbo in the future, you now know the pitfall of the Garrett center section.
And can ask the vendor how they solved......
"The Square Peg in The Round Hole"
Problem. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
This is a picture of the factory turbo mount. You can see a hole where the oil returns to the crank case. It is sealed with an o-ring.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate2.jpg" alt=" - " />
This is a picture of the Garrett turbo. "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?" This is the preverbial square peg in a round hole. The Garrett center section oil return hole is SQUARE and the base is narrower than the factory mount base.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate1.jpg" alt=" - " />
This is the paper gasket that SFR installed in a lame attempt to seal the oil return area. You can see the imprint of the o-ring on the paper gasket and the arrows point to the areas where the MAJOR oil leak developed. Also a paper gasket is a poor selection in this area. The heat generated by the exhaust dried out the paper and made it brittle. This picture shows the gasket in place on the turbo/motor mount. The arrows point to the failed areas.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate7.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here are the parts that I used to cure the oil leak problem. About $45 dollars material cost, 32 hours of my own labor and two weekends of not driving the 951. Thanks SFR.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate9.jpg" alt=" - " />
The aluminum plate you see here was fabricated at S-CarGo Racing. It is installed onto the turbo/motor mount to provide a seal at the o-ring and to provide a new flat surface for the narrower/square holed/ turbo base. I first thought to weld up the groove and eliminate the o-ring, but S-CarGo thought that it would warp the aluminum mount.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate3.jpg" alt=" - " />
With the plate in position, this is the gasket I used to seal the turbo base to the plate. It is a factory part (#930 107 116 01) that is used on the 911 turbo. It is not a paper gasket, but is the same material that the exhaust doughnuts are made from. Perfect for use in a high heat environment. Here is the gasket in place on the Garrett turbo base. You can see that the gasket will allow oil to flow through the square hole without impediment, yet still seal any leak.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate4.jpg" alt=" - " />
And finally the stack on the Garrett turbo. Well you get the picture.
<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/plate6.jpg" alt=" - " />
My garage floor is now back to a spot free condition. The underside of my 951 (after more hours of cleaning) is free of its layer of oil. And my motor is once again drip free.
Hopefully this helps anyone that has a Garrett turbo with a leaking base. And for those of you that plan to purchase a Garrett turbo in the future, you now know the pitfall of the Garrett center section.
And can ask the vendor how they solved......
"The Square Peg in The Round Hole"
Problem. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-08-2003, 11:26 PM
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I use just the stock o-ring on my Garrett no leaks, maybe just luck on my part. Now on the other hand the turbo blows oil like crazy, I have it sent off for repair after only 3700 miles, down 3 weeks so far.
How thick is the adapter? I had to do a lot of filing on the compressor housing and the throttle body screws as it is.
How thick is the adapter? I had to do a lot of filing on the compressor housing and the throttle body screws as it is.
04-09-2003, 03:36 AM
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I've made many of those adapters, I use 1/8th inch aluminum. Bill is right, its a crap shoot on how the turbo will fit. I was unlucky also, and thats when I did the aluminum shim thing as well.
I have a theory on the blowing oil issue of the Garrett turbos. THese are my thoughts, and please comment at will.
I believe our stock KKK unit center sections run on the same principle as the oil only cooled KKK turbos, and probably run the same bearing selection as well. The oil cooled KKK needs alot of oil pumped thru them to keep cool, basically flooding the bearing galley. Our stock KKK seems to need the same amount of oil, or better yet, seems to be built to tolerate the same "flooding". I use the 1/4" oil feed to the turbo as evidence to support this part of the theory. THere is a tremendous amount of oil pressure in that line, and its a pretty big feed.
Now, on the other hand, according to Corky Bell, the modern water/oil turbos only require a few psi and a relatively low amount of oil. The oil is used as lubricant, water cools the bearing section. Now, knowing this, I believe the newer garrets are built in such a way that they on the most part, cannot handle the amount of oil our feed pumps in, and the galley gets flooded, the oil makes its way past these bearings in the water cooled garret's.
Each time I have had a customer come in with a smoking garrett, I simply place a 1/16" opening restrictor in the top of the turbo, inline with the feed, and poof...or rather NO POOF, the smoke is gone. CoinkyDink?
Anyone?
Take Care!
I have a theory on the blowing oil issue of the Garrett turbos. THese are my thoughts, and please comment at will.
I believe our stock KKK unit center sections run on the same principle as the oil only cooled KKK turbos, and probably run the same bearing selection as well. The oil cooled KKK needs alot of oil pumped thru them to keep cool, basically flooding the bearing galley. Our stock KKK seems to need the same amount of oil, or better yet, seems to be built to tolerate the same "flooding". I use the 1/4" oil feed to the turbo as evidence to support this part of the theory. THere is a tremendous amount of oil pressure in that line, and its a pretty big feed.
Now, on the other hand, according to Corky Bell, the modern water/oil turbos only require a few psi and a relatively low amount of oil. The oil is used as lubricant, water cools the bearing section. Now, knowing this, I believe the newer garrets are built in such a way that they on the most part, cannot handle the amount of oil our feed pumps in, and the galley gets flooded, the oil makes its way past these bearings in the water cooled garret's.
Each time I have had a customer come in with a smoking garrett, I simply place a 1/16" opening restrictor in the top of the turbo, inline with the feed, and poof...or rather NO POOF, the smoke is gone. CoinkyDink?
Anyone?
Take Care!
04-09-2003, 11:43 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Each time I have had a customer come in with a smoking garrett, I simply place a 1/16" opening restrictor in the top of the turbo, inline with the feed, and poof...or rather NO POOF, the smoke is gone. CoinkyDink?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks for the info John, Tim made the same suggestion. I will give it a shot. Turbo should be back Friday.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks for the info John, Tim made the same suggestion. I will give it a shot. Turbo should be back Friday.
04-09-2003, 12:13 PM
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I agree with you John Anderson. I work on small gas turbine engines for a living and we have a similar problem with some of our engines. Too much oil in the turbine bearings and we have smoke and poor performance. Too much oil also causes shorter bearing life due to the higher friction and drag caused by the excess oil. Especially in the engines that have journal bearings.
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04-09-2003, 12:52 PM
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We have made these oil drain plates for a few peopl and now include them with our turbos.Ours is one step ahead of what Bill is using though.It has a groove cut on the top to except another o-ring. No gaskets at all. I am sure one of our customers out here will post a picture of the adaptor. It is a nice peice.
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04-09-2003, 01:44 PM
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John Anderson,
You have a very analytical mind and your deduction sounds quite logical to me.
Since you are a player in the industry, can you take it the next step and contact the engineers at Garrett to discuss your theory and fix?
My concern here is the opposite of threesticks point, and that is to create too great of a restriction and thus destroy the bearing. Both are lose/lose situations though.
I am not an engineer, but I would think that a couple of calculations (oil pressure, line size, etc.) can determine current flow and then comparing that to the designed requirement of oil flow by Garrett, a proper restricter could be uncovered for our specific application.
This in my mind is the value of a "Tuner". To take a mass produced performance item (impossible to make plug and play for all applications) and PROPERLY adapt it to the specific brand. Any schmo can half a$$ the piece onto their rig for 10 minutes of fame.
I would definitely buy this restricter plate from you.
And give praise to you for your initiative in defining a problem, and the creativity in coming up with a resolution.
This is how a "Tuner" earns their wings.
You have a very analytical mind and your deduction sounds quite logical to me.
Since you are a player in the industry, can you take it the next step and contact the engineers at Garrett to discuss your theory and fix?
My concern here is the opposite of threesticks point, and that is to create too great of a restriction and thus destroy the bearing. Both are lose/lose situations though.
I am not an engineer, but I would think that a couple of calculations (oil pressure, line size, etc.) can determine current flow and then comparing that to the designed requirement of oil flow by Garrett, a proper restricter could be uncovered for our specific application.
This in my mind is the value of a "Tuner". To take a mass produced performance item (impossible to make plug and play for all applications) and PROPERLY adapt it to the specific brand. Any schmo can half a$$ the piece onto their rig for 10 minutes of fame.
I would definitely buy this restricter plate from you.
And give praise to you for your initiative in defining a problem, and the creativity in coming up with a resolution.
This is how a "Tuner" earns their wings.
04-09-2003, 02:05 PM
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David,
It sounds like you need to look at a different solution to your clearance issue. Rather than hack away at the throttle body til there is nothing left, perhaps something else can be done.
Maybe you can lower the turbo by milling some thickness off of the turbo base plate and/or the turbo mount. When a head is shaved to clean up the surface, the factory provides a thicker head gasket to bring back the proper clearances. So maybe you could get thicker intake to head gaskets to raise the intake manifold. Or a small combination of, "all of the above".
The artfulness of the solution is what separates the master from the apprentice........
"Sir, put down the file and step away from the engine".
It sounds like you need to look at a different solution to your clearance issue. Rather than hack away at the throttle body til there is nothing left, perhaps something else can be done.
Maybe you can lower the turbo by milling some thickness off of the turbo base plate and/or the turbo mount. When a head is shaved to clean up the surface, the factory provides a thicker head gasket to bring back the proper clearances. So maybe you could get thicker intake to head gaskets to raise the intake manifold. Or a small combination of, "all of the above".
The artfulness of the solution is what separates the master from the apprentice........
"Sir, put down the file and step away from the engine".
04-09-2003, 02:13 PM
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John put the restrictor that he describes in my turbo oil feed and explained that the turbo only requires ~1 bar of oil pressure [as per Corky Bell, whose book I've read btw] to operate safely. He didn't say this will also reduce the likelihood that the turbo will smoke, wear out bearings, etc. That's great! With a system that delivers 5 bar on throttle and at least 2.5 bar at idle, I'm not surprised that the restrictor helps. I've been using a k26/8 turbo with this restrictor for about 3500 miles and I haven't seen a hint of smoke coming from the tailpipe. Suffice it to say that I'm very pleased...oil smoke from the tailpipe would drive me nuts.
04-09-2003, 02:22 PM
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<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> "Sir, put down the file and step away from the engine".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your right Bill and since I don't have the same leaking problem you have and the turbo is already "ground to fit", I will just leave the mount as is and fashion a restrictor that will screw into the turbo oil hole flush fit.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> "Sir, put down the file and step away from the engine".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your right Bill and since I don't have the same leaking problem you have and the turbo is already "ground to fit", I will just leave the mount as is and fashion a restrictor that will screw into the turbo oil hole flush fit.
04-09-2003, 02:36 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by John Anderson:
<strong>Each time I have had a customer come in with a smoking garrett, I simply place a 1/16" opening restrictor in the top of the turbo, inline with the feed, and poof...or rather NO POOF, the smoke is gone. CoinkyDink?
Anyone?
Take Care!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Very interesting... Seems to me a retrictor will only increase the pressure. Just an observation on oversights by tuners:
1. Fuel enrichment with MAF kits
- no temp sensor included in MAF Kits
2. Smoking turbos
3. And gasket issues between the Turbo and mating surface.
<strong>Each time I have had a customer come in with a smoking garrett, I simply place a 1/16" opening restrictor in the top of the turbo, inline with the feed, and poof...or rather NO POOF, the smoke is gone. CoinkyDink?
Anyone?
Take Care!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Very interesting... Seems to me a retrictor will only increase the pressure. Just an observation on oversights by tuners:
1. Fuel enrichment with MAF kits
- no temp sensor included in MAF Kits
2. Smoking turbos
3. And gasket issues between the Turbo and mating surface.
