TPS Adjustment
03-19-2005, 07:07 PM
#46
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Lorenfb previous MSDOS debug related posts:
Lorenfb's current MSDOS debug beliefs:
Obviously. Glad you finally cleared that up, only took a year. Use the appropriate tools for the job, MSDOS debug is definitely not one.
Then use the MS DOS DeBug program and
you can disassemble (list the 8051 code) it and figure out what
the DME is doing in your 944.
you can disassemble (list the 8051 code) it and figure out what
the DME is doing in your 944.
If you run Debug in MSDOS and disassemble the firmware in the DME EPROM,
you'll get the hexcode which is the machine language (microcode) of the Intel
8051 processor. If you want to make a patch (Jump) or an ignition setting, you
can easily change the hexcode (machine language) within Debug without having
to recompile the whole firmware.
you'll get the hexcode which is the machine language (microcode) of the Intel
8051 processor. If you want to make a patch (Jump) or an ignition setting, you
can easily change the hexcode (machine language) within Debug without having
to recompile the whole firmware.
8051 u-p (u-code, run from EPROM, assembled/disassembled
using MSDOS DeBug
using MSDOS DeBug
MS DOS DeBug obviously is NOT the most appropriate assembler to
use, but it is simple and allows code mods, e.g. timing & fuel, and a
BASIC overview of the u-code of a DME.
use, but it is simple and allows code mods, e.g. timing & fuel, and a
BASIC overview of the u-code of a DME.
03-19-2005, 07:30 PM
#47
Like I said, you can modify, compare, check for copyright infringements,
on ANY EPROM hex code using DeBug. It'll also help identify where the maps are
located and what was changed. Actually, a very good app for doing a number of
things without having to use a large assembler. Good to use "to see", e.g. who's
copying whom, or what you're really paying for in a performance chip. Still a good
tool for a DIY type of guy.
By-the-way, you can make "jumps" and insert patches using DeBug
by just using the "E" command (enters data into memory), knowing the hex code
for the assembly instructions for the 8051. It is not just limited to the 8086
as some have suggested, right beab951? Sounds like some can't write a small
machine language patch or program. I'm disappointed in your abilities.
It's kinda like checking the battery voltage using the Porsche PST2 diagnostic tester.
Again, many on the forum prefer to guess than read the manuals
or are limited to what is posted!
on ANY EPROM hex code using DeBug. It'll also help identify where the maps are
located and what was changed. Actually, a very good app for doing a number of
things without having to use a large assembler. Good to use "to see", e.g. who's
copying whom, or what you're really paying for in a performance chip. Still a good
tool for a DIY type of guy.
By-the-way, you can make "jumps" and insert patches using DeBug
by just using the "E" command (enters data into memory), knowing the hex code
for the assembly instructions for the 8051. It is not just limited to the 8086
as some have suggested, right beab951? Sounds like some can't write a small
machine language patch or program. I'm disappointed in your abilities.
It's kinda like checking the battery voltage using the Porsche PST2 diagnostic tester.
Again, many on the forum prefer to guess than read the manuals
or are limited to what is posted!
Last edited by Lorenfb; 03-19-2005 at 09:15 PM.
03-19-2005, 10:01 PM
#48
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I used to wire-wrap 8051 microcontrollers (hobby only) using the original Intel 40 pin chip (8052 as well for EZ basic programming) back when it still took a little effort to put together a microcontroller. I sure never used MS DEBUG for 8051 code, but imagine it could be used to dsiplay the hex.
Is the DME 8051 a standard Intel chip, or is it one of the seemingly endless variants that seem to exist? I understand the fuel and timing maps reside on the replaceable EPROM's, but where do the 8051 machine language instructions reside? How would one gain access to that to debug or disassemble it?
Is the DME 8051 a standard Intel chip, or is it one of the seemingly endless variants that seem to exist? I understand the fuel and timing maps reside on the replaceable EPROM's, but where do the 8051 machine language instructions reside? How would one gain access to that to debug or disassemble it?
03-19-2005, 10:10 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by Lorenfb
It is not just limited to the 8086
as some have suggested, right beab951? Sounds like some can't write a small
machine language patch or program. I'm disappointed in your abilities.
It's kinda like checking the battery voltage using the Porsche PST2 diagnostic tester.
Again, many on the forum prefer to guess than read the manuals
or are limited to what is posted!
as some have suggested, right beab951? Sounds like some can't write a small
machine language patch or program. I'm disappointed in your abilities.
It's kinda like checking the battery voltage using the Porsche PST2 diagnostic tester.
Again, many on the forum prefer to guess than read the manuals
or are limited to what is posted!
No, I never stated that it could only be used on the 8086, you should limit your comment to what was posted! If one wants to disassemble 8751 code one uses the correct tool, one designed to disassemble the code and give real op codes that don't have to be interpreted. Anyone who has gone through undocumented code will quickly point out what a PITA it is trying to understand what the original programmer was trying to do. Now, add in your comment that you have to write a patch to correct the disassembled code and you have a real mess. BTW, I designed computers when I was with DEC and taught 100s of technicians in how to program computers with the direct Op code entry. This was used to troubleshooting problems after test programs failed, no assemblers were used. I am no amateur to this game.
Last edited by Bri Bro; 03-19-2005 at 11:26 PM.
03-19-2005, 10:29 PM
#50
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Tom, look at the post hally did on the Motronics Editor. This is something that can be really used to change maps. Unlike MSDOS debug, you don't have to guess at were the maps are.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ing+experience
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ing+experience
Last edited by Bri Bro; 03-19-2005 at 10:52 PM.
03-20-2005, 02:44 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by beab951
Tom, look at the post hally did on the Motronics Editor. This is something that can be really used to change maps. Unlike MSDOS debug, you don't have to guess at were the maps are.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ing+experience
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ing+experience
Thanks for this link! I actually downloaded that a while ago, but lost the link. For some reason, when I try to use it, it has problems "registering" the program. Am I doing something wrong?
Does the machine language code (rather than the fuel/timing maps) sit on the EPROM or does it reside in some less-changeable place?
03-20-2005, 06:58 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by Lorenfb
Yes!
The later 944 DMEs that use the 64K EPROM execute the u-p code from the
within the EPROM.
The later 944 DMEs that use the 64K EPROM execute the u-p code from the
within the EPROM.
Edit: when you say u-p code, you are referring to the programming code (the machine language that the processor processes, rather than the maps), right?
03-20-2005, 08:52 PM
#54
I'm surprised Bosch/Porsche/etc. has not objected?
You're correct here. Any copying and duplication of Porsche/Bosch's u-p code is
a copyright infringement. Just ask AMD about how Intel sued them for using the
math-coprocessor code in the AMD 486. Porsche/Bosch just hasn't "found" the time
yet to go after those that infringe on their copyrights. They're not too timid about
"nailing" those that use their trademark (emblem), though. So, those selling
performance chips have violated Porsche's copyright.
Edit: when you say u-p code, you are referring to the programming code (the machine language that the processor processes, rather than the maps), right?
Yes, that's what I mean. This was done on the 911 3.2 DMEs also in '88 & '89.
My 3.2 box has a 28 pin 64K EPROM which has a better idle and an overall
smoother running because of improved maps. The '87 911s used a 32K EPROM
like the 944s. Those that know the 8051 can easlily verify external code execution
by checking the DME circuit board.
You're correct here. Any copying and duplication of Porsche/Bosch's u-p code is
a copyright infringement. Just ask AMD about how Intel sued them for using the
math-coprocessor code in the AMD 486. Porsche/Bosch just hasn't "found" the time
yet to go after those that infringe on their copyrights. They're not too timid about
"nailing" those that use their trademark (emblem), though. So, those selling
performance chips have violated Porsche's copyright.
Edit: when you say u-p code, you are referring to the programming code (the machine language that the processor processes, rather than the maps), right?
Yes, that's what I mean. This was done on the 911 3.2 DMEs also in '88 & '89.
My 3.2 box has a 28 pin 64K EPROM which has a better idle and an overall
smoother running because of improved maps. The '87 911s used a 32K EPROM
like the 944s. Those that know the 8051 can easlily verify external code execution
by checking the DME circuit board.
04-30-2011, 04:57 AM
#55
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"We appreciate your expertise. Specifically, when "we" say Throttle Position Switch or TPS, we are referring to the part pictured below. What do you call it?"
That appears to be a standard idle & WOT switch unit as used on most Motronic systems, i.e. 0 ohms when closed (a click), & infinite ohms when open.
944
This uses an idle switch & WOT switch combined into one unit as shown.
The outputs from these go to the DME pins 2 & 3, respectively.
944S
This uses an idle switch & WOT switch combined into one unit as shown.
The outputs from these go to the DME pins 52 & 53, respectively.
944 Turbo
This uses an idle switch & WOT switch and a TPS combined into one unit.
The outputs from these go to the DME pins 2 & 3, respectively. The TPS
outputs go to the KLR pins 21, 22, 23.
968
The TPS input is DME pin 53. No need for a idle or WOT switches as on the early
cars, as all info comes from the TPS element.
"I told you, I have your number." - special tool -
Really! Please. So who's this guy who hides behind a "no name" from nowhere.
Bottomline: The DME has a switch inputs element and the KLR has a true TPS input,
i.e. a varying voltage input
That appears to be a standard idle & WOT switch unit as used on most Motronic systems, i.e. 0 ohms when closed (a click), & infinite ohms when open.
944
This uses an idle switch & WOT switch combined into one unit as shown.
The outputs from these go to the DME pins 2 & 3, respectively.
944S
This uses an idle switch & WOT switch combined into one unit as shown.
The outputs from these go to the DME pins 52 & 53, respectively.
944 Turbo
This uses an idle switch & WOT switch and a TPS combined into one unit.
The outputs from these go to the DME pins 2 & 3, respectively. The TPS
outputs go to the KLR pins 21, 22, 23.
968
The TPS input is DME pin 53. No need for a idle or WOT switches as on the early
cars, as all info comes from the TPS element.
"I told you, I have your number." - special tool -
Really! Please. So who's this guy who hides behind a "no name" from nowhere.
Bottomline: The DME has a switch inputs element and the KLR has a true TPS input,
i.e. a varying voltage input
about the wot switch yes/no topic on the 944 turbo.I have got here the 0280120400 sensor that they tell me it is the 944 turbo throttle sensor and idle switch.
I've tested it all the way and the only thing that i get is:
pin 1-2 input 5V
pin 2-3 output (variable, throttle moving)
pin 6-4 idle switch (beep = continuity) from the tester and a nice mechanical click.
I can't find a couple of pins that gives continuity at WOT, by manually operating the sensor so i'm inclined to thing that this sensor can't provide such a feature (WOT microswitch).
If such a 6 pins (square plug, not round as in some BMWs) + idle + wot switch + pot exists i really should know the Bosch number cause i need it for another application.
Thank you very much.
04-30-2011, 09:55 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
Regardless of what has been 'discussed' in this thread previously,
N/A cars use a unit that ONLY has Idle & WOT switches
Turbo cars use a unit that ONLY has Idle Switch & Throttle Position potentiometer.
WOT signal for Turbo cars comes from the KLR.
Nothing on any 944 uses a unit that has two switches (Idle & WOT) and a throttle potentiometer - maybe 911's did ?
Disagree ? check your Porsche wiring diagrams, service manual or Test Plan
N/A cars use a unit that ONLY has Idle & WOT switches
Turbo cars use a unit that ONLY has Idle Switch & Throttle Position potentiometer.
WOT signal for Turbo cars comes from the KLR.
Nothing on any 944 uses a unit that has two switches (Idle & WOT) and a throttle potentiometer - maybe 911's did ?
Disagree ? check your Porsche wiring diagrams, service manual or Test Plan
04-30-2011, 10:12 AM
#57
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No, no, i don't want to disagree or to start another discussion...I wanted to have simply the confirmation (and now i have) of what i have tested on this 0280120400 (i could have got the test wrong).
I'm in the middle of an EMS project and i'm searching for a Bosch TPSensor with idle and wot switches integrated as an alternative to the common 0280120402 (which is 2 switches and potentiometer).
I've found the 0280120433 and 418 but i still can't found some technical specification to tell if it is a double or single switch unit.
I do know that it is a 5V input and a counterclockwise (looking the back of the sensor) but nothing else.
Thank you.
I'm in the middle of an EMS project and i'm searching for a Bosch TPSensor with idle and wot switches integrated as an alternative to the common 0280120402 (which is 2 switches and potentiometer).
I've found the 0280120433 and 418 but i still can't found some technical specification to tell if it is a double or single switch unit.
I do know that it is a 5V input and a counterclockwise (looking the back of the sensor) but nothing else.
Thank you.
04-30-2011, 12:17 PM
#58
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Sounds right. Pins 1 and 2 are the inputs to the pot and pin 3 is to the wiper. The unit is not voltage dependent, but the Turbo does use a regulated 5V input to the pot on pin 1 for accuracy. Return for the pot is on pin 3. Pins 4 and 6 are idle contacts. Pin 5 is not connected. The picture is for the Turbo.
