mark kibort

Thanks Duane, I really had a great time..... even with all the little things going on after the first qual and race. Im still reeling about the track. I watched the video and feel my right foot pushing to the floor as i coast around 8!

funny you mention the water tower. i kept on trying to find it, but couldnt it... that was a distraction in itself... but then, i learned to just let the speed carry me to the outside of the track (andersons advice) and found those black braking marks for the point where i would lift and start the approach to turn 9. so much time lost there! cant wait to go back I think in theory, you should be able to keep the pedal down from 7 to 8 too and go about 5mph faster.

the qual off at 9 was totally expected. i lost the turn in reference points , and knew i was in way too early..... thats one turn where you NEVER want to turn in early.

No problem about the botched starts. i still see that sometimes, and it always just makes me laugh. in the end , I dont think anyone really gets too far ahead! Steve and I had a good time running around too. Again, a great weekend and ill definitely be back. Really nice to run with just Porsches again!!

Now, when is willow going to put up some track marker so us foreigners know where to put the car at turn 8??? I think you locals just like to keep that knowledge advantage, huh!!

Again , great to see you and the car at willow... .what a work of art and blistering fast too. Hope to make Laguna.... might only able to pull off one day, but trying. (family plans )

mark kibort

Greg,

Lets' talk about the survival of the car at Willow. you wanted to get my impression of speeds and RPM levels around the track.
There were no oiling issues at a 1:31 and 3 hours of near all out track time. no fluctuations of the oil pressure around turn 2 (which i think is the worst turn for the 928 , if there is a problem). turn 7-8 9 didnt seem that big of a deal ether, but i was a little slower through that area due to not really knowing the track, but had a few laps in traffic where i was able to get the speed much higher through that section. 135mph'ish. RPM levels... I actually did something Anderson rarely did , by downshifting into 3rd around turn 1, to kick up the RPM levels and ran it up to 6500 before turn 2 where i then ran around it like anderson did in the 4500rpm range. The omega was near the same too as what Anderson sees as far as RPM levels and then the back straight, not much different as well , in the 5500rpm range as a peak level through 8 and lower than him from 8 to 9 as that was my slow part of the track, but still cooking along

Here is a comparison Video of anderson driving his white zombie at Willow springs on not one of his fastest laps, but still going all out vs me on one of my traffic laps as well. you can see shift points and speeds are not much different (his later laps are much faster , but the point is , my much less modified car (edit) is in the ball park ). Again, this is not a driver comparison.. Mark is much faster here, no doubt, but its about car survivability. Plus, his car was equipped with about 50 more HP and slicks with a wider track, which pays huge dividends at Willow.

I cant wait to go back actually. Mark will drive my car for a session or two next time as well.. if he wants to.

I'm changing the oil out today and sending a sample out to Blackstone to see if anything might have happened that give any indication that there was any issues.

dr bob

Thought you took the red 928 with the stroker and race suspension. ???

mark kibort

I meant "unmodified " external stock oiling system. or maybe it should have been said as "less modified". sorry about that!

no drysump, oil cooler, oil baffle, oil breather, oil scraper, windage tray , spacer etc etc.
no slicks
no 2" wider track
no motons
no modified suspension pick up points.
150lbs heavier

GregBBRD

I think you did a great job and I'm happy both the car and the engine survived!

I will be interesting to see how the oiling works, as you get faster at Willow and the car is subjected to more loading....but your argument for Amsoil certainly is beginning to have merit.

As I mentioned, many times before, comparing lap times at Willow on different days, with different track conditions, with different drivers (with different levels of experience at Willow), in different cars, is impossible.

Looking back at the lap times I've "saved", over the years, the last time Mark Anderson turned a 1:31:00 at Willow was before the car was lightened and it still had a 4.7 liter engine in it.....but that means absolutely nothing.

Just like I expect you to be fast at Laguna and your other home tracks, I expect Mark Anderson to shine at his home tracks, one of which is Willow.

Congratulations on a job well done. I'm not sure who actually owes who dinner and beer....but I'd be honored to buy, when we get together!

mark kibort

Thanks Greg. even though you were not there, i was quite focused on the forces on the car from the track. sure the track might have been a second or so slower, but the main reason for not getting into the 1:30s was more about distractions and a mechanical issue on saturday. my low offset 11" rim was put on the front by mistake and the 10 high offset was in the rear on only one side! . so smoking, and PS steering line blowing was a distraction. the newer tires were making the track so much fun too.

sunday, was then worried about the tire that had the cuts and the broken header pipe that was rigged to not fall out. (and the race itself) had a good time just racing with that cup car til the end.

so, i owe you the dinner! a bet is a bet, even though im loaded with excuses! and maybe a new bet for next time i come down? Next time will be about the time and ill bring some better tires too!

my impressions is that the RPM levels are very close to what anderson runs , or ran at when he raced the 2001 version of the car. where he really shines (and most all the locals shine ) is in turn 8-9... mostly 8 and trying to find the turn-in to 9. its almost like the track is more about knowlege than driving. however, once i figure out how to keep the pedal down and run with the little cars that seem to have no problem going around turn 8 WOT, ill pick up several seconds, for sure! you can see it from the video. im on a cars tail going into 8 and then he gaps me by 2 seconds before turn 9 apex.

anyway, another interesting data point is that with andersons GTS gear box, he actually lowers the RPM range in that critical area of turn 8. going 135 in 4th is 5500rpmm and a gear ratio of 3.2:1.. with the GTS 2.75 5th gear that he shifts to going into turn 8, he is going the same speed but 800rpm less at 4700rpm.

so, that right there proves that my set up has some valuable attributes and im not possitive i know what they are, but i think the oil discussion has some interesting aspects that might be reasons for the 928 engine survival. maybe is the lack of amsoil floaming? maybe my breather tube heights. (slight modified from stock), maybe the siffer suspension to prevent body roll that could hurt the situation, or maybe as simple as oil level or my pre-race warm up procedure. whatever the case.. i have no problem letting mark drive the car next time and putting on the stickier tires too. I truly think the car is good for 1:29s with no problems. as you can see from the comparison run , around turn 2 and into 8, im not measurably much slower than Mark on a moderately paced lap . on his fastest laps, i found the difference to be about 1 second on the front straight, around turn 2 and 1 seconds down the back straight and then 3 seconds into 8-9.

(as a refernce point regarding grip... i was pretty consistant at a 1:34. when i slapped on decent rubber, it was pretty easy to run 1:31. im sure one more level of grip would have done the same.. and with more gas pedal and less coasting around 8-9, im sure that would be the potential of the car and im not worried now about the engine. the small increases in g loading wouldnt change the oiling all that much. now, would it if the car was outfited with pirelli slicks and aero so that it could run a 1:25..... dont know....I think we need some acurate g sensors to really see whats happening with our cars at the track and when the problems will appear.

see you at the next event and look forward to the dinner and beer!! (or wine for Mark! )

mark kibort

Greg.. here is race 2 on sunday.
again, fixed the PS pump line, but still felt an issue, and concerns of the rear tire that was cut down because it was put on front on saturdays race. mainly initially concerned about the header downpipe as it was about to fall out. (but secured at the bottom to at least see if it could run without leaking or falling out.)

GregBBRD

There's no question that the turn 8-9 "complex" is one hell of a combined "turn" and there is an "eternity" to be made up there. I've driven Willow hundreds and hundreds of laps....and I was never fast or comfortable through that "turn".

For a reference point, the people that really know Willow and can go really fast there, claim that their speed through the 8-9 complex is higher than down the front straightaway....

And if you are racing with other cars....there's an entire different approach to that complex. I've spent time with some great drivers at Willow....but I think that I learned more about turn 8-9 and the different ways to approach it from Dennis Aase, than anyone else. Spending time in a car with Dennis, when he was at his prime, was a real eye opening experience....

Rest assurred, regardless of how many laps I turned at Willow, I never got anywhere near my top speed going down the front straightaway in the turn 8-9 complex!

mark kibort

Who knows what the limits are for grip there, besides the locals. i was hitting a solid 140 down the front straight, but dont think i could ever hit that on turn 8, BUT, i will admit, i got as slow as 120ish and that was from 130ish at the peak of speed into 8. anderson helped me with thinking about letting the car just kind of float outward, to the edge , and i got away from those bumps of the inside of 8. that felt much better. still, if those selfish bastards put up some real racing track distance/turn in markers, 8-9 would be a LOT easier to learn! (instead of looking for little pebbles or bugs, or water towers 5 miles in the distance, to initiate your turn in or braking point)

Krokodil

Greg is correct about matching speeds at the end of the main strait and the brake point between T8/T9, but it is a bit dependent on the wind direction (and aero) which can alter speed by 2-3 mph.

I just looked at the data from my fast lap at the track in February (1:22.8) and the T1 brake point speed was 143.0 and at the T8/T9 point it was 140.8.

This past month my qual lap was 1:23.6 and the speeds at both ends were down about 2.5 mph. However, review of the data indicates that I lost 75% of the delta in time between 4A and 6 so the lower top speed into T1 and T9 did not alter the lap time too much.

You can see, however, where the cross wind to headwind shift slowed the car significantly between T8 and T9 (TPS shows 100% for both laps).

Cheers,

GregBBRD

^^^^^For those of you who don't know, this man can drive!^^^^^

mark kibort

I kind of figured there were a lot of trade offs. a tail wind down the main straight might pay more dividends than the tail wind down the 7-8 area if you are not sure of grip or line. however, even though we had a smokin cross head wind down the main straight, which hurt main straight, and 7-8 speeds i would imagine, many of the times seemed to be only a second off . That, coupled with dirt on the track, might have made it worse. all i know is that i lost about 3-4 seconds trying to feel my way around turn 8. GREAT to see that it is possible to run the same speed at 8-9 vs the main straight. I was wondering if 135 was kind of a limit for sports cars of our weights. next time, ill use that to be the goal for that section . that will be a TON of time saved.

curious. how did you lose 75% of the time lost in the omega area?? if so, that doesnt seem to be a section that would be that effected by wind.
i can see how only a 2.5mph diff down the main and back straight wouldnt be that much of a diff. heck thats only about 1.5 to 2%.

do you have any video???

Yes he can, but that car is the bomb. 1:23s at willow with 350hp and look at those speeds! it sure proves that that track is all about grip and "*****". (or knowledge )
I know we were in the same range at laguna with his last year car, but with this new car, he might be in old GT3 cup car territory no problem. 1:33 ish.
Im hoping with brand new Hoosiers to make a few improvements there too!

Krokodil

How did I lose time? Because I made a mistake - both in car control and in trying a different gear off of T5. I should have stayed in 4th vs. shifting down to 3rd and then back up to 4th - the added acceleration did not cover the gear change speed loss on entry to T5 and approach to T6. Reviewing several laps showed me that I carried more speed through and off of T5 in 4th. Nothing to do with wind.

Yes, I have video and will clip down and post a bit later (kind of boring though).

It is good to know that speed at Willow has nothing to do with skill (although I still very much appreciate Greg's compliment) ;-)

We ran 1:34 at LS in 2014 in the prior configuration (same car) and 1:35 back when the car was a 3.4. Not sure what the 928 runs. I suspect we can get the car sub 1:34, but it will be a stretch. The POC event this year is a 92db day so we need to add back the mufflers and remove the diffuser (and pull DF off the front). Much of this will depend on the HP we can get though the mufflers as we can't easily remove more weight (we are at about 3050#).

Look forward to seeing you there.

Cheers,

mark kibort

DUANE, sorry, i do that sometimes. didnt mean to take anytihing away from the driving. you are mastering willow. my point is that it seems to me,a and if you do this long enough with enough practice you get real good.... seems you are there for sure now. the point about willow, at least to me.. its a real fun track. not that challenging from the driver difficulty perspective as it lacks the dive bomb braking areas. lots of gear changes that bodes well for guys that do that well. its more about knowing the line, confidence in the car and grip (skill level there for sure) . again, i can see the slower cars run from me in that one section.... i know i can go through it a little faster, but that will take some more laps there.

ah... i understand about your omega slowness and the 2.5mph not making much diff. sounds like if you didnt have that gear change and control thing, the lap time would have been really close to your best? interesting. thats the thing about downshifting.. it has to have the time to be worth it vs the .1 or .2 seconds of "negative" power. that entire area of the omega is filled with little bursts of power. (on off throttle). i can see why that might not help there.

as a coorlation data point.... our yardstick, Anderson has been driving willow springs for years and years. class champ, in the 928, in the cup car, etc. you are running faster than he is , by a good margin and i think you are doing it on DOTs to boot! his best was 124 at willow springs, even as he added HP from 420 to 520...... you are running 1:22.xx yet if you go to sears, thunderhill, laguna, that dominance is lost to other cars. thats why i think willow is such a handling /"*****" track. (and yes, its a skill too!) Ill eat my word if you run 1:30 at laguna andersons time and the time of most evenly prepared and HP/weight racers and buy you a beer!!
my car is 1:35.xx as a best .... lots of 1:36s over the past 7 years. all on used tires... i think with a set of new ones, i might be able to get in the low 1:35s as a goal. but, i dont think even with anderson driving it, on the tires i had, that its much faster than a 1:28 car on its best day at Willows.

so, let me say, my impression is just my impression and im going WAY slower than you are at Willow. im sure it takes on a much different personality at 122 than it does at 1:31.
It's not worse or better ,its just different. LOVE the speed and actually like it better than most tracks due to letting the car stretch its legs and there is relatively little shifting and braking. so its really a get-the -car -on -edge and keep it there type of track.

look forward to getting out there with you at laguna. I hope i can make it. have to deal with some family obligations......

Mongo

While I'm not really contributing to this post, and seeing I just came back from a 'vacation', Mark is back???????