ROG100

I for one much prefer a manual car to an automatic in the older cars - apart from the 928 of course as that is the worst manual gearbox know to man kind.
I just sold an 88 924SE with a beautiful 5 speed box that was very slick.

Having driven a 991 with PDK I can also attest that that is a very special GB.

Adk46

It would take the entire brain trust here to figure it out. Mskar stopped by today on his way home - he got to see my special horns, my ordnance-packing Austin Healey, and an intake refresh underway in all its horror. Turns out he used to write and sell software used to devise performance chips; he can be our firmware guy. I'll be happy to bring the beer.

GlenL

Thanks to wpgshark for trolling us all. It's almost the most boring part of winter. Winnipeg? Hmmmm...

Now on with it:

Dentists' wives ruined everything.

mark kibort

I agree. however, even with the 928, its a visceral experience that requires skill to be efficient in it . part of the differentiation in racing as well. with that gone, i don think the racing is quite is good. with auto blips, paddle shifting, no lift upshifting, racing abs..... where is the skill? now driving is just a video game.
however, with the 928, it would save a bunch of transmissions (and engines) if the human factor was not a major element of those failures.

Speedtoys

I dunno, the driving part maybe?

Mark R.

I made sure both of my sons (22, 24) learned how to drive a manual transmission, and they both still drive manuals in their daily drivers.
One bonus I learned later was when they took their cars to college with them (where everyone borrows each other's cars).
So few of their piers knew how to drive a stickshift, that their cars rarely ever got loaned out to their classmates.

On a similar note, I also remember hearing of cases where people had willingly exited their car on the command of an armed carjacker.
The young carjacker jumps in the car, sees the clutch and stickshift, realizes he is unable to drive away, and flees the scene on foot.

dr bob

Just a few short years ago I was flying into Memphis for a project. The rental lot was empty due to a football game, but they had reserved a car for me that just hadn't been returned yet. They also operated the rental desk at the local MB dealership, so ran down there to grab a car for me. C300 sport, nothing exotic really, but a nice upgrade from the Sonata I usually drove there. The project is in a cornfield by a creek, literally, on what is referred to there as an "improved" road. To make things more fun it had drizzled that day a little, so the surface was damp, dirty, and had some leaves on it too to make it interesting.

Leaving that night I took a left instead of a right so I could go out through the woods. As fast as the car could launch with the programmed maximum wheelspin, headed for the first corner at 70+. Nice runout area available, I just hauled the wheel over, stood on the brakes as hard as I could, then on the throttle to the floor mid-turn. The car did abosulutely nothing wrong, it pitched and pointed correctly to the corner, sprinted around without missing a beat, and the only heartrate that was elevated a little was mine. As much as I like to think I'm just as good as any pro Swedish rally driver, there's just no way I could have done all that in an old-school stick-and-three-pedals car. It was just effortless, in spite of me purposefully doing everything I could to upset the car.

I still enjoy that dash through the mountains with gobs of torque and the ability to pitch the car at will just by abusing the clutch or throttle a little. If I want to go through there quickly, the modern "assisted" car with the computerized gearbox would by my instant choice.

----

The modern autmatic box is able to handle pretty massive amounts of torque, mostly because it's almost impossible to abuse it. Integrated engine and transmission management work together to do away with full-throttle slam-shifts. Instead, the fuel is interrupted momentarily while one clutch disengages and the other engages, rpms matched for you, and away you go. It's so quick you can't tell all the stuff that's happened, except there was no loss of traction and your drift angle didn't bobble a bit. You go faster, with fewer broken parts, and a much more stable ride.

-----

In my spare time I offer software automation for power plants. Biggest challenges are the folks who have been doing everything manually since the biginning of time in a facility. It's hard to convince them that it's OK to sit back and watch the thing run. Cars have evolved the same way in their relatively short history. Nobody misses having to constantly adjust spark advance and mixture going down the road, or engaging different leather belts with pedals and levers. We also like the reliability that is taken for granted in the modern car. Most who cliam to have fond memories of pre-60's stick-shift cars never actually drove them regularly.

Snark Shark

Well, that sort of thing is even easier with a manual because you don't have the transmission or torque converter doing anything unexpected. And if you can heel-toe downshift then you never have to shift mid-corner. So you're just entering and exiting each curve with your drivetrain firmly connected the whole time.

Speedtoys

What do you think will be the first "commonly" required part that will go NLA, and how long?

I know certain things are NLA following threads, but theyre not hugely common things to fail either, right?

hacker-pschorr

The best example for this discussion is the Acura NSX

1991 - One of the purist sports cars ever made
2017 - A Playstation on wheels

The results?

"The original NSX showed us that a supercar could actually work. This new one shows us that a hybrid system can make a turbocharged supercar work. But Acura's decision to insert all that complexity comes at the expense of driver involvement. The NSX is very fast, very capable but it's also not very engaging.

If I were in charge of Acura I'd take a long look at the things that once made Hondas products so special. I'm certain this NSX will start and run every day, but who wants to drive a supercar every day? I'd buy an Acura sedan for sitting in traffic and then an old stick shift Ferrari to drive on sunny weekends.....oh and thanks to the original NSX, my Ferrari 355 starts and runs every time I turn the key"

Hilton

IIRC, the centering spring as used in the 87-95 manuals is already NLA?

As to the question of auto vs manual.. 928 is mostly a car owned by enthusiasts for entertainment. For driving fun, I'll take a manual. For ferrying the family around, auto.

Both my kids will learn to drive manual.. their first cars will probably be a manual 2-seater (MX-5 maybe?), so they'll have to choose between driving their best friend or their boyfriend

FredR

I kind of smile somewhat when I read comments about driver involvement- all very true but what is the point of the exercise?
Manufacturers are trying to produce "more for less" and generally they are succeeding in this regard. When my GTS was originally delivered in 1992 it cost around $100k over here. Today for that kind of money you can purchase a brand new Porsche of some kind [Cayman GTS?] that will **** rings round the 928 in most regards- that is "progress". Is it as much fun to drive?- that depends entirely on your point of view. Personally if the car can "do more" I find that engaging others may not.

The simple fact is that technology has reached a point where computerised logic circuits can do better than humans can in most instances but no matter what some folks may think, I can guarantee that if you put Lewis Hamilton in said vehicle and A. N. Other in one Lewis will still **** rings round the Other on any circuit in any conditions- that you can guarantee.

I have driven a recent 911 Turbo S with PDK- I can only describe it as "stunning" my only regret being that I do not have the funds and/or inclination to purchase one. Is it a good thing or a bad thing because it is not inclined to spit you into the hedge backwards as soon as you hit the gas pedal or the brake pedal? That is "progress".

Manual gearboxes are a thing of the past, they will still give their own form of pleasure and long may they do so but the notion that they are better- I don't think so not any longer.

Rgds

Fred

Adk46

It would be truly sad if we could no longer drive a vintage car with vintage systems. It's less sad that we cannot drive a new car with vintage-era systems. It has always been the case that nearly everyone prefers a new car with new systems. (Of late, the new systems have gone way too far for me. Not the mechanicals, I mean all the voice/touch/fiddly stuff on the dashboard. Give me a few simple ***** and a USB port.)

However, the Porsche situation is indeed very sad for the vintage guy: they have become far too expensive for most people. Even if you have the money, you really shouldn't be driving it around too much - it's almost a museum piece. Unless, of course, you "settle" for a non-911 (in our case, probably with a torque converter, which is a mechanical wet noodle that nobody loves).

And it's a little sad for the new-car-with-old-systems guy, e.g., the PDK-only high-end models. But the new manuals have not gone away, and there are plenty of affordable 911's and 986's in the dip between vintage and new - the first years of water-cooling. I suspect I'll get one of these eventually, dirt cheap if it has the original IMS bearing and I'm feeling lucky.

Would there be enough buyers for Porsche to produce a 911 "V"? Small flat six, 5-speed, no infotainment system, manual cloth seats, non-radical wheels/tires, no radical anything. Make it unattractive to the Country Club guys, so no cannibalization. Maybe I'm talking about a car with an NA flat-four - a new 912.

I'm certainly not talking about a car like the 928, though. If they brought it back, it would certainly be PDK-only, and few would complain.

marine928

While the electronics and all the assisted driver elements make a novice driver into a semi-expert, the real white elephant in the room is the fact that when one of these computer controlled gadgets fail the thrill is over.
No getting it to the house for a fix, unless you have the 100k software and the licensing to use it, not to mention the knowhow.
You can spend 40-90 thousand and a wannabe clone or advanced electronic sports car that supplies all the thrills without the satisfaction of knowing your skill was responsible for the result and in ten years when the electronics invariably fail, leave you with a useless paperweight.
Or you can take that same money, buy a real vintage sports car that goes up in value every year and gives you the satisfaction of the adrenaline rush when you make it perform risking that drift or rear end swap.
The truth is, all the electronic wonder cars will be virtually worthless in 10 to 15 years when the gadgets start failing because the owner cannot have some quality garage time with it.
IMHO

Adk46

It's even worse than most people know: the code that controls 991/981's is actually encrypted. Last I knew, tuners have not been able to crack it. You can't even do anything to increase air flow, since the code will command the throttle to close in response.

Our only hope is that PLA 61398 (the Chinese Army hacking unit) will go after Porsche.