michaelathome

Interesting after reading,

The old title meant that you needed to have 500 cars per year built.
- The 1986/7 928 S4 did 172mph and met all production numbers for the next few following years.

The Porsche 1988 959 was next up on the block but I am not sure if they met the required production numbers. I do recall that the car was built for Class B racing but IIRC that was only 200 cars "planned" not a true production car.

In 1989 the governors changed the rules to 500 cars of the same model.
- Ferrari held the title with the F40 for only 3 years with the new rules.

In 1991 they changed the rules yet again and the Bugatti EB with only 139 produced took the record.

In 1993 they changed it yet again to now 500 cars on the road.
- McLaren held to the newest rules of 500 cars manufactured total. They built a few extras and kept the road versions at a total production of no less than 500 cars.

In 2005 Bugatti took the title with the Veyron and has held it since.

I find it interesting that no one could keep up.

Go team 928!!

I am curious what cars might be faster today if their production #'s are in keeping with the old rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...roduction_cars

Speedtoys

having a hard time beliving that nobody has beat 172mph, with 500 cars being produced of it..

Not that its not true..but..really?

FBIII

Just about any model year Z06 corvette exceeded 500 built and way over 172. Probably many four door Mercedes exceed 172 and 500 units. That statistic can't possibly be right. The page you copied showed the Ferrari Daytona doing 174 and 1400 units over a decade earlier?

hacker-pschorr

ZO6? Try the ZR-1 in 1990 that easily passes 172mph with over 3,000 built that year.

Not to mention the famed Bonneville run wasn't with a stock production car. The exact details of the modifications are unknown but the lack of mirrors, wipers and an obvious lower than stock ride height make it obvious it wasnt "bone stock" for the "winning" run.

The class it ran in was beaten by a highly modified S10 the following year. Point is, it was a class for stock based cars. Not those driven straight from the showroom.

Back to Corvettes....in 1987 you could order a Corvette from the dealer with option code B2K thet would surpass the 928's top speed.

FredR

If any of you chaps have seen the Holbert run you will notice that the front wheels look "suspiciously skinny" and he infamously complained about wheel slip on the rear limiting his ultimate top end.

Unless my mechanical engineering is a bit rusty wider tires mean more rolling resistance= less top end. I am sure my wide wheels/tire take something off top end but no idea what and no inclination to find out these days.

I suspect the Holbert run used 205 sections up front and probably[?] a 225 on the rear- would be interesting to read if anyone has a fuller picture of what actually transpired.

I do not think homologation specials should be considered production cars- I would say that to qualify as aproduction car it owuld bemore meaningful to have a rule stating that 1000 examples ahve to be built. Doubtless any punk can go out and purchase a Bugatti Veyron but given the manufacturer allegeddly sponsored the unit build cost quite how that qualifies as a "production car" is beyond me.

Regards

Fred

Vilhuer

Correct number is 1284 coupes. They were doing 174mph already in '68 but single calendar year production wasn't ever over 500 cars so some might say it's not real production car. In any case it was faster than GTS over 20 years before it. They were that fast also in US legal form as needed stuff wasn't that bad on those early emission years and Ferrari spend lots of effort to make sure top end performance remained same ans ROW version. 122 made 365 GTS/4 was probably fastest convertible for long time also after it's production ended. It can do 171.

hacker-pschorr

Why stop at 1,000? Compared to a Toyota Camry the 928 is a limited edition prototype.

Maybe we need categories:
1. Regular production cars (Camry / Taurus)
2. Limited production cars (928 / Corvette)
3. Extremely limited production cars (anything faster than a 928 we want to exclude)
4. Stuff only Ralph Lauren and Jay Leno can afford or qualify to buy

Any punk with the necessary funds can absolutely buy a Veyron.......Justin Bieber has one.

Koenig-Specials 928

All the Vipers were faster as well

XS29L9B

Correct. RPO B2K Corvettes were between 178 in 1987 to 186 in 1988, to 191 in 1989+ when fitted w/ opt. Aerobody package.

But with only 188/yr at a high, to about 60/yr as a low, 510 were built, overall from 87-91. Still the high watermark for C4 Corvettes

XS29L9B

Salt flats also produce much different levels of drag and rolling resistance than asphalt or concrete. FWIW.

Link:
http://www.saltflats.com/traction.html






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dr bob

To take the record, the candidate vehicle actually needed to run at Bonneville as the Holbert car did. It was and is up to the manufacturer to present the cars. Oh, and they need to be U.S. models.

Meanwhile, many manufacturers rode the coat tails of car magazine speed tests and such, where particularly sweet examples were offered for "testing". And for many manufacturers, the U.S. versions were way down on performance relative to their original European brothers. The red Italian cars with the horse on the hood badge fell way short of Euro performance after U.S. and particularly California emissions-equipped models. Bottom line, those manufacturers had no incentive to share real performance numbers that would pop the expectation bubble. Reality is that only a small percentage of U.S. owners would ever get near top speed, and those who discovered that their particular car was off of the magazine numbers had no incentive to share the results. After all, it would only reduce the perceived market for their own cars.

The production car rules at the time did in fact allow you remove wipers and outside mirrors. The Holbert team also swapped differential ratios trying to eke out the best top speed. It's not clear whether the 2.20 R&P was used for the record Bonneville runs.

Meanwhile, Porsche has been quite conservative in their top speed claims over the years. They went 184 at Nardo testing, on pavement and much closer to sea level. Yet the Owners Manual number is 172 IIRC for manual transmission S4's, and 165 for automatics. Showroom cars could make those numbers reliably. Mine will top the claimed number, at least based on the speedo indication. It takes a bit of top-gear pulling to get there, but except for the unfamiliar-territory-for-me engine RPM's, it's a relatively drama-less event.

Tom in Austin

Interesting discussion ... I think of a 928 as a 'production car' in the sense that there were only two models (S4 and GT) and you could stand a decent chance of buying one off the lot at many Porsche dealers. Contrast that with special editions of many other nameplates (let's not even get started on the umpteen different AMG Mercedes cars made over the years) and limited inventory or having to special-order something like a Bugatti or McLaren.

FBIII

I really question the credibility of the 184 number posted for the S4. I don't think you will find any other cars with 315 - 320hp and the coefficent of friction that the 928 has doing anywhere near 184.

michaelathome

And on a related note:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/auto...veyron-n311806

A total of only 450 cars in it's 10 year run.

Michael

dr bob

Don't shoot the messenger. Porsche didn't brag up that number, and it's quite probable that the test car (supposedly the same car Holbert drove) was a carefully hand-picked and hand-assembled example. And knowing the Florida group at the time, it may heve been massaged a bit between Nardo and Bonneville. Remember that the S4 wasn't yet available on dealers' floors as the effort started, so a truly "showroom-stock" example would not have been available to compare/contrast anything that was done to the car. Mark K will tell you that the original engine and driveline were particularly strong, pointing to perhaps some still-prototype engine management tuning. We know from Sharktuning that there's some power left out of the production tuning to allow for variations in fuel, air density and the like.


Regardless, the discussion is about other cars that might have taken the class at the time or since. Guessing that Porsche did a bit of due diligence before the runs to make sure they were in a class they could win.