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Wasn't really trying to stir up the hornets nest here. What I was trying to do was start a discussion of what cars CAN hit the 500 PY production # AND has a higher top speed than the 928. I am sure there are a few.
I still question why 500? Why not 5, 50 or 5,000?
What significance does 500 have? The FIA keeps coming up and if that's our standard, than whatever homologation rules they put forth that year qualifies.
Originally Posted by michaelathome
I think that Porsche may have been making claims using FIA guidelines.
For the Bonneville run it was simply a class entry, nothing more. It was for production "based" cars which means production numbers never came in to play.
If you want to keep things in this category, then boosted cars and / or those with over 5 liters don't count, since that is the class the 928 is in.
Originally Posted by Tim Noce
what cars COULD have done this, based on the same requirements, had the manufacturer chosen to test it at Bonneville?
When you see that pretty much any modifications are allowed as long as the engine isn't boosted and is under 5 liters......I'm surprised the list is so short.
Looking at the chart one might ask: "How did the GMC Cyclone get on there, it has a turbo 6??" Not the one at Bonneville, it used a normally aspirated 5 liter V6:
All that aside, looking through the list of entries in this class, the 928 is surly the most stock vehicle to ever compete and hold the title. That is an impressive feat but it doesn't really say much for "real world" performance.
...back when top speed tests were the topic of the day
But:
Car and Driver changed their position on top speed testing though after a fatal accident involving Sr. Technical Editor, Don Schroeder, at Ft. Stockton, TX
I still question why 500? Why not 5, 50 or 5,000?
What significance does 500 have? The FIA keeps coming up and if that's our standard, than whatever homologation rules they put forth that year qualifies.
Agreed on homologation. Whatever the rules of production may be, dictate. Not feelings of those hurt by the rules.
Second fastest was the Porsche 928S4. At 165 mph, the Porsche was stable as an aircraft carrier. The supple suspension soaked up the small irregularities of the track surface, and directional stability was first-class. The aluminum V8 was smooth as glass, and the car was entirely vibration-free. Above 120 mph, there was distinct wind noise from turbulent air around the side mirrors, but otherwise the big Porsche made 165 feel like 65. Tach 5400, speedo 173.
It makes you wonder if aero mirrors and the windshield gap fillers would change anything.
Don't confuse USAC Bonneville rules with FIA classes. USAC don't speak French...
FIA Homologation rules are more appropriate for production-class racing, where there's a formal process to certify what's offered and how many were actually sold with a particular feature. Were enough GT-40's built to satisfy the Le Mans rules in the '60's? Sure, on paper. There are still chassis numbers at Shelby that were "produced" back then to satisfy the homologation requirements. Kept in a small shoe box locked in a safe I'm sure, available to anyone who is willing to pay to have the finishing touches put on their little number plaque. Like a frame and all the other stuff that normally goes above the bottom of the tires.
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I've been "rule book" racing before in SCCA, and it takes a lot of 'documentation' to race what others aren't racing in a class where others are. Most of the more creative interpretation was 'clarified' within a couple seasons to re-equalize the fields.
Bringing a "winged" Countach to a top speed test is rather silly.
Europe’s Fastest of the Fast – Porsche 928 S4 vs. Ferrari Testarossa vs.
Lamborghini Countach vs. Lotus Esprit Turbo
Motor Trend, January 1987
Porsche has decided that the 928 needed an image change. The car has
always been viewed in this country (by the enthusiast) as an unparalleled
cruiser, the perfect car for a weekend in the Napa/Sonoma wine country with
your lady friend or a quick run from L.A. to Portland.
Its compliant, comfortable ability to cover large distances quickly has
few, if any, equals, but now there will be a new emphasis on performance
for the 928 from the German car company.
The ’87 928 S4 is the spear carrier. As we reported in last month’s issue,
it’s not all image. The car has more power, better aerodynamics, and, as a
first step for the new “performance” 928, Porsche sent Al Holbert to
Bonneville Salt Flats to capture two FIA speed records for the flying
kilometer and flying mile, nearly 172 mph. We were slightly slower with
our test car at TRC, but the differences are small enough to be explained
by preparation of the car for the Bonneville record runs.
Certainly the most civilized of the field, the Porsche was also the least
demanding at top speed. Compared to the others, it was compliant, and
managed to turn the bumpy west banking into a non-event. The Porsche was
also the quietest at speed. The 4-valve V-8 was silky smooth, the only
sound was the complaint of the air as the big, red 928 blasted a 170-mph
hole through it. The speedometer registered a solid 169 mph at the end of
the front straight, and the Porsche seemed totally unconcerned by it all.
We tried both high and low lanes of the banking to see if the 928
suspension would react – it did not. We tried different exits from the
banking – the Porsche didn’t care. We considered turning the stereo on but
decided that would be sacrilegious; after all, this was serious stuff
blasting along here at 170 mph on the high banking, and we should be paying
attention.
The Results
Speedometer accuracy being what it is, we were anxious to see the printouts
from the timing equipment. The story of the tape:
Ferrari Testarossa – 177.27 mph
Porsche 928 S4 – 166.94 mph
Lamborghini Countach – 160.27 mph
Lotus Esprit Turbo – 145.79 mph
The surprise of the field was the 928 S4 at 167 mph. A noticeable
improvement over the last time we tested a 928S, here at TRC back in 1984,
when the best speed was 147 mph (a full 14% increase).
Hacker I was trying to bring it back to FIA Bonneville which is where the Holbert/PCNA run was at. Looks like you have sorted Cat A - Group 2.
Why would they have run in the pick-up group?
Looks like we hold the top speed for a car in a truck group
You are missing the point entirely, it's not a "truck" group, it's anything with no boost and between 3 and 5 liter engine.
That list is simply the vehicles that set a record.
I doubt it's every vehicle to ever contest the class, but then again it just might be.....? No idea.
The Olds Aero isn't a truck, it's also the furthest thing removed from a production vehicle.......yet it's in the same class.
I'm just trying to point out why the Bonneville test is meaningless when trying to compare the 928 to other street driven vehicles.
Joe Walsh's Maserati did 185. That was back in 1978. But I think he lost his license. And had to stop driving. So maybe that doesn't count.
But life was good to him. So far.
Joe Walsh's Maserati did 185. That was back in 1978. But I think he lost his license. And had to stop driving. So maybe that doesn't count.
But life was good to him. So far.
It did, till he had to get a limo and ride in the back...
02-25-2015, 08:36 PM
