Sudden loss of engine oil, now what?
02-26-2015, 12:27 AM
#19
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Yep, I guess that true, probably a lot more than we can see from the photos so far. The usual while you are at it question. Fix and drive or fix and repeat, then drive some!
I kep putting off some fixes because driving is more fun!
Dave
I kep putting off some fixes because driving is more fun!
Dave
02-26-2015, 02:36 AM
#21
You can call me Otis
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So a while back I picked up a '86.5 928 that had a sudden loss of engine oil when the PO hit an obstruction and tore off the alternator. The alternator struck the oil pressure sender and the oil filter, putting holes on both of them and causing a rapid loss of oil. The car was on a city street at the time.
I assume the motor stopped when the alternator broke off and took out the electrical connection to the battery.
The engine does turn over by hand and while the alternator belt was shredded, all other belts are intact.
So, where would you start with this project?
I assume the motor stopped when the alternator broke off and took out the electrical connection to the battery.
The engine does turn over by hand and while the alternator belt was shredded, all other belts are intact.
So, where would you start with this project?
I would first install a new oil filter and sending unit, and the do what it takes to get it started before messing with the alternator, just leave all the belts off. The engine could have lost quite a bit of oil in a short time.
Even if there is no engine damage due to lack of oil, the pics show an engine in need of a lot of maintenance.
I would first do the minimum to get it running, then if the engine is not damaged, decide if it is a parts car or worth at least 5k more invested to make it a driver.
With the looks of those engine pics, I am sure nothing else in the driveline was maintained.
02-26-2015, 10:21 AM
#22
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Pulling the engine is in the plans, along with the rest of the driveline.
The car is a long term project and will be a sunny day vehicle, only used when there is not salt on the roads and the weather is nice. This means there will be plenty of time for maintenance and restoration, especially during the winter. I'm restoring this car as a hobby not as an investment. I'm going into it knowing that it will cost me time and money. However, time and money are valuable to me and I don't care to waste either one.
Right now I'm trying to determine if there was any engine damage. There appears to have been oil leaking from every possible seal on the engine. Perhaps I should just pull the motor and pop the heads and oil pan off and see what is there!
The car is a long term project and will be a sunny day vehicle, only used when there is not salt on the roads and the weather is nice. This means there will be plenty of time for maintenance and restoration, especially during the winter. I'm restoring this car as a hobby not as an investment. I'm going into it knowing that it will cost me time and money. However, time and money are valuable to me and I don't care to waste either one.
Right now I'm trying to determine if there was any engine damage. There appears to have been oil leaking from every possible seal on the engine. Perhaps I should just pull the motor and pop the heads and oil pan off and see what is there!
02-26-2015, 07:28 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
The cracked-off bit was part of the alternator/PS pump console. Its a separate piece and is bolted to the block.
Looks from the pics you've posted like there's no actual block damage other than a mark where something impacted just in front of the oil cooler fittings, and some contact with the ground on the base of the pan.
So it looks to me like you should be able to:
1. Get a used alternator console and oil pressure sender (might want a new sender - they do fail)
2. Fit a new oil filter
3. Check wiring carefully and repair any breaks
The only real unknown here is whether there was any bearing damage from the loss of oil, so checking the state of the bearings should be your first priority IMO.
The majority of the filthy engine condition is, I'm sad to say, "normal" for 928's which have been minimally maintained for the last 20 years. The cost to fix it all up, replace the rubber gaskets/hoses/seals, timing belt, water pump etc. will run to around $3-5k in parts, plus a lot of hours of cleaning, but that is the cost of entry to the 928 world for most cars, unless you get lucky and buy one which has already been through by an enthusiast.
You've said your plans include pulling the engine - given the scope of work the engine needs to look good and not leak, that's a great idea, as it makes access to everything else so much easier.
First thing once its on a stand is:
1. Check crank end play using a dial gauge (to check the thrust bearing). 0.4mm is the wear limit.
2. Pull the oil pan and check the 2/6 rod bearings (as they'll be the first to starve of oil when it got punctured).
If they're ok, then I'd go ahead and replace all the usual gaskets/seals/hoses and engine mounts and clean it a lot! Then drop it back in and drive it a bit.
Looks from the pics you've posted like there's no actual block damage other than a mark where something impacted just in front of the oil cooler fittings, and some contact with the ground on the base of the pan.
So it looks to me like you should be able to:
1. Get a used alternator console and oil pressure sender (might want a new sender - they do fail)
2. Fit a new oil filter
3. Check wiring carefully and repair any breaks
The only real unknown here is whether there was any bearing damage from the loss of oil, so checking the state of the bearings should be your first priority IMO.
The majority of the filthy engine condition is, I'm sad to say, "normal" for 928's which have been minimally maintained for the last 20 years. The cost to fix it all up, replace the rubber gaskets/hoses/seals, timing belt, water pump etc. will run to around $3-5k in parts, plus a lot of hours of cleaning, but that is the cost of entry to the 928 world for most cars, unless you get lucky and buy one which has already been through by an enthusiast.
You've said your plans include pulling the engine - given the scope of work the engine needs to look good and not leak, that's a great idea, as it makes access to everything else so much easier.
First thing once its on a stand is:
1. Check crank end play using a dial gauge (to check the thrust bearing). 0.4mm is the wear limit.
2. Pull the oil pan and check the 2/6 rod bearings (as they'll be the first to starve of oil when it got punctured).
If they're ok, then I'd go ahead and replace all the usual gaskets/seals/hoses and engine mounts and clean it a lot! Then drop it back in and drive it a bit.
02-26-2015, 11:34 PM
#24
Team Owner
I would add to what Hilton suggested .
Some diagnostic work needs to be performed
Please Note the important bit of info is,
HOW much oil you drained out of the sump before you have started or run the engine.
If more than 4 qts of dirty oil come out then its a safe bet that no internal engine damage has been done.
The engine will run for for 30 seconds with no oil pressure and no damage should occur .
That said the remaining oil quantity will tell you where to go.
The as Hilton suggested the best thing to do is pull the engine,
and go through the external seals.
NOTE I would pull the heads and do a valve job and new headgaskets ,
I would not mess with the crank or pistons, though looking at the 2/6 rods should be done.
if the engine runs and makes good oil pressure then you can follow the advice that has been posted.
IOTOH there are lots of metallic specs in the oil then pulling the crank will be be mandatory.
NOTE drip some of the engine oil onto a black piece of cardboard look at the oil in the sun with a magnifying glass.
So right now you need the following parts to repair and diagnose this engine,
and that's if the oil is not filled with metallic particles.
Power Steering cassette,
oil press sender,
oil filter,
8 QTS of dino oil,
alternator belt.
Some diagnostic work needs to be performed
Please Note the important bit of info is,
HOW much oil you drained out of the sump before you have started or run the engine.
If more than 4 qts of dirty oil come out then its a safe bet that no internal engine damage has been done.
The engine will run for for 30 seconds with no oil pressure and no damage should occur .
That said the remaining oil quantity will tell you where to go.
The as Hilton suggested the best thing to do is pull the engine,
and go through the external seals.
NOTE I would pull the heads and do a valve job and new headgaskets ,
I would not mess with the crank or pistons, though looking at the 2/6 rods should be done.
if the engine runs and makes good oil pressure then you can follow the advice that has been posted.
IOTOH there are lots of metallic specs in the oil then pulling the crank will be be mandatory.
NOTE drip some of the engine oil onto a black piece of cardboard look at the oil in the sun with a magnifying glass.
So right now you need the following parts to repair and diagnose this engine,
and that's if the oil is not filled with metallic particles.
Power Steering cassette,
oil press sender,
oil filter,
8 QTS of dino oil,
alternator belt.
02-27-2015, 09:38 AM
#25
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I'll drain what remains of the oil from the pan and have a look to see if there is any metallic flakes. Ill also measure just how much oil is in there. The quantity of oil should be a good indication how how quickly the engine was stopped after impact.
I'm struggling to fight my urge to blindly start the engine without taking steps to ensure additional damage doesn't occur.
Thanks for the comments, they are greatly appreciated.
I'm struggling to fight my urge to blindly start the engine without taking steps to ensure additional damage doesn't occur.
Thanks for the comments, they are greatly appreciated.
02-27-2015, 01:42 PM
#26
Team Owner
If your struggling with starting the engine before you do any diagnostic work,
please disconnect the battery,
and take it away from the car.
Then take a brick and drop it on your left foot,
these steps will prevent the engine from being started
please disconnect the battery,
and take it away from the car.
Then take a brick and drop it on your left foot,
these steps will prevent the engine from being started
02-27-2015, 03:55 PM
#27
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I'll report back after checking the remaining oil and the crank end play.
02-27-2015, 07:41 PM
#28
Team Owner
no dont drop the battery,
it will be damaged by the sudden stop as it hits the ground.
The brick on the other hand wont care what foot it hits
it will be damaged by the sudden stop as it hits the ground.
The brick on the other hand wont care what foot it hits
02-27-2015, 09:12 PM
#30
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