1986 928 S 4.7 or 5.0?
12-13-2014, 03:54 AM
#16
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Something that simple can adversely affect the feel of the car.
12-13-2014, 06:18 AM
#17
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If I look at a 928 and the air-con is not working or had just been regassed it's a deal breaker for me. You must have driven a bit of a pig sadly. I've had a 911, 930 a couple of 944T's and sold an E46 M3 to get back into a 928. I have two at the moment and have owned five in total. A good one with low kms and well maintained is a thing of beauty to look at and drive. You could run from Melbourne to Sydney, have dinner and jump in and drive straight back home again. That is what they are designed for. Quite some time ago when I had a radar detector I done Melbourne to Adelaide in 5.5 hours.
Oh, and don't forget they take off in second gear so feel sluggish.
If the wife and I travel now she wants to take the 928 and she wants to drive. This is a woman who drives 250Kmh across the Hay Plain and loves every minute of it.
Here's a good one. Flew to Melbourne with son and wife to pick up two cars, an 85 928 and a BMW E39 540. BMW turned out to be a pos and I also bought some wheels which were going in the back hatch of the 928. No room for wife. Drop her back at the airport so she can fly back home. I go get the wheels and then son and I are on our way home. Got home in time to pick up the wife from the airport
Oh, and don't forget they take off in second gear so feel sluggish.
If the wife and I travel now she wants to take the 928 and she wants to drive. This is a woman who drives 250Kmh across the Hay Plain and loves every minute of it.
Here's a good one. Flew to Melbourne with son and wife to pick up two cars, an 85 928 and a BMW E39 540. BMW turned out to be a pos and I also bought some wheels which were going in the back hatch of the 928. No room for wife. Drop her back at the airport so she can fly back home. I go get the wheels and then son and I are on our way home. Got home in time to pick up the wife from the airport
Dewolf, sounds like some stiff competition, even for a 928 to beat, E46 M3 especially, I probably did drive a pig, it might've been the auto, or maybe it was me.
I'm driving a virtually identical manual car in a couple of days, so that should be a good comparison, no two cars are the same.
I should probably drive a 4.7 just for a comparison, maybe a revvier engine is more what I'm after, it seems to me that lower peak torque would be preferable for a heavy car
You can lube a stiff throttle cable , makes a big difference when freed up. Most likely it needs a new one , but they aren't cheap.
Aircon would be needed in Melbourne , esp given your slow CBD traffic and stinking hot January's . Mine is non-operational , but I get by with the fan and windows/sunroof. The cockpit always gets hot from radiant exhaust heat through the gearshift/console.
To repeat what has been said before , you need to drive one for 3-6 months to see where its many strengths lie. Once you learn to use the gears e.g. get the auto to start in 1st , kickdown working etc) it's a quick beast , though certainly heavier in feel to Golfs and older 911s. Once you gain confidence in Weissach's engineering you can hustle through the twisties very rapidly.
And the cars have character
Modern cars haven't earn't theirs.
Aircon would be needed in Melbourne , esp given your slow CBD traffic and stinking hot January's . Mine is non-operational , but I get by with the fan and windows/sunroof. The cockpit always gets hot from radiant exhaust heat through the gearshift/console.
To repeat what has been said before , you need to drive one for 3-6 months to see where its many strengths lie. Once you learn to use the gears e.g. get the auto to start in 1st , kickdown working etc) it's a quick beast , though certainly heavier in feel to Golfs and older 911s. Once you gain confidence in Weissach's engineering you can hustle through the twisties very rapidly.
And the cars have character
Modern cars haven't earn't theirs.@Randy V - No I didn't check the tire pressures, but they were on the high side, the car had recently made a long highway trip interstate, that's my only clue. It ran well, was disappointed it couldn't go over speed bumps that fast, would've thought 30km/h was alright, but the back wheel hook(?) hit on the way over, the front had no issues. 20kph would be a real pain.
12-13-2014, 07:14 AM
#18
Three Wheelin'
A nice S4 is still a very modern looking car and the OB cars are well.......just tuff!
12-13-2014, 01:01 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Well, the more information you give, the better answers we can give back. 
First off, the 928 isn't a "sports car." It's a "Grand Tourer."
It's also not a drag car. Lots of things will beat it off the line and in a "stoplight race." The automatic cars are designed to start in 2nd gear, which makes taking off from a dead stop even worse.
It's also not a lightweight. 1600kg is about right. That weight makes it very stable and comfortable, at the cost of acceleration. But it's the quickest car above 70 mph (110 kmh or so) that I've ever been in. Drop into 4th and mash the throttle and you are passing 160 kmh before you know it.
They handle corners like very few other cars out there, even modern ones.
It's also amazingly comfortable on long trips. I've done a few on them, including a 4500 mile round trip (7200 kms) to California and back. I can drive it all day, and when I stop feel as if I could go all night.
It's that good.
Keep in mind that it's also almost 30 years old. Stuff wears out, stuff ages. Air conditioning is one of the things that needs to be kept on top of. Electricals is another. These were very advanced cars for their time, and the electrics are pretty complex.
The sticky throttle is probably just age. It could be simply needing lubrication. or it could be that the cable has worn through the outer sheath and is binding (that's a problem that is known to happen).
There's lots of that sort of thing with these cars. Fortunately, there's a wealth of knowledge on here and an amazing willingness to share and help. Any problem you encounter has probably been dealt with before. The real experts on here are willing to walk you through the repairs, step-by-step if needed. We also tend to help each other out in person. Hopefully, some of the guys near you are willing to show their cars to you. Seeing a car that you knowis in decent condition give you a much, much better idea of what they are like vs looking at one for sale that you really don't know much about.
As far as engine choice goes, I took a quick look at the Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_928) and it seems like the Australian cars had the 4.7 through 85, but the 5.0 in 86. I think it's the same 5.0 as the US cars. Not a "US spec" car, but the same motor.
I don't know if you are going to find an 86 with a 4.7. If you do, it would (I think) be a car delivered elsewhere and imported later.
And I did get lucky. I did a fair amount of research before buying, but I didn't realize how much better the 4.7 Euro motor is over the 5.0 US, and I also didn't realize how rare they are here in the US. Nobody kept accurate figures on the "grey market" imports, but the best guesses run between 500 and 1000 "S2" cars brought to the US (probably towards the lower end), with probably less than 500 (maybe less than 300) still on the road today. That's for the entire US.
First off, the 928 isn't a "sports car." It's a "Grand Tourer."
It's also not a drag car. Lots of things will beat it off the line and in a "stoplight race." The automatic cars are designed to start in 2nd gear, which makes taking off from a dead stop even worse.
It's also not a lightweight. 1600kg is about right. That weight makes it very stable and comfortable, at the cost of acceleration. But it's the quickest car above 70 mph (110 kmh or so) that I've ever been in. Drop into 4th and mash the throttle and you are passing 160 kmh before you know it.
They handle corners like very few other cars out there, even modern ones.
It's also amazingly comfortable on long trips. I've done a few on them, including a 4500 mile round trip (7200 kms) to California and back. I can drive it all day, and when I stop feel as if I could go all night.
It's that good.
Keep in mind that it's also almost 30 years old. Stuff wears out, stuff ages. Air conditioning is one of the things that needs to be kept on top of. Electricals is another. These were very advanced cars for their time, and the electrics are pretty complex.
The sticky throttle is probably just age. It could be simply needing lubrication. or it could be that the cable has worn through the outer sheath and is binding (that's a problem that is known to happen).
There's lots of that sort of thing with these cars. Fortunately, there's a wealth of knowledge on here and an amazing willingness to share and help. Any problem you encounter has probably been dealt with before. The real experts on here are willing to walk you through the repairs, step-by-step if needed. We also tend to help each other out in person. Hopefully, some of the guys near you are willing to show their cars to you. Seeing a car that you knowis in decent condition give you a much, much better idea of what they are like vs looking at one for sale that you really don't know much about.
As far as engine choice goes, I took a quick look at the Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_928) and it seems like the Australian cars had the 4.7 through 85, but the 5.0 in 86. I think it's the same 5.0 as the US cars. Not a "US spec" car, but the same motor.
I don't know if you are going to find an 86 with a 4.7. If you do, it would (I think) be a car delivered elsewhere and imported later.
And I did get lucky. I did a fair amount of research before buying, but I didn't realize how much better the 4.7 Euro motor is over the 5.0 US, and I also didn't realize how rare they are here in the US. Nobody kept accurate figures on the "grey market" imports, but the best guesses run between 500 and 1000 "S2" cars brought to the US (probably towards the lower end), with probably less than 500 (maybe less than 300) still on the road today. That's for the entire US.
12-13-2014, 01:27 PM
#20
Race Car
I love how we go in circles defensively citing the GT heritage when discussing responsiveness and off the line performance, then folks stuff 315s on the rear of street cars....And by 'we' I mean the broader community not the preceding poster..
Depending on your price point and your fuel source/quality, you may want to weight the 928 purchase with a supercharger factored in coming out of the gate. Several kits are well sorted now, though approaches and results vary. One of them is suitable for 5.0 32V--- though you would have to find out about the complications that arise from steering etc.
The automatic you drove- there are many, many minor things that can make an automatic seem like jello....they are slower to be sure, but add in a vacuum leak in the circuit, or old trans fluid or fluid at the wrong level, or improperly adjusted throttle/trans cables- almost a certainty given your description of accelerator pedal travel, and it is more or less a stone.
Depending on your price point and your fuel source/quality, you may want to weight the 928 purchase with a supercharger factored in coming out of the gate. Several kits are well sorted now, though approaches and results vary. One of them is suitable for 5.0 32V--- though you would have to find out about the complications that arise from steering etc.
The automatic you drove- there are many, many minor things that can make an automatic seem like jello....they are slower to be sure, but add in a vacuum leak in the circuit, or old trans fluid or fluid at the wrong level, or improperly adjusted throttle/trans cables- almost a certainty given your description of accelerator pedal travel, and it is more or less a stone.
12-13-2014, 02:15 PM
#21
Pro
I travel quite frequently and always make it a point to try out different cars at my destination, at least those generic ones you find in rental fleets. There are benefits to the newer cars, but I've yet to find one I'd rather own over my 928.
The 928 is no slouch when maintained and shines at speed with a strong pull... solid and stable on the highway.
The 928 is no slouch when maintained and shines at speed with a strong pull... solid and stable on the highway.
12-13-2014, 07:18 PM
#22
I believe the 86 5 liter had a little lower comp ratio,good motor to push air thru. If you really get into the 928 you will never compare it to a goof again woop golf,sorry
12-14-2014, 02:57 AM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Drive a few, get some rides in nicer ones, and if you can resist buying one, then it wasn't the car for you anyway. Sooner or later a 928 will test your affection, and the insincere will be left behind.
12-14-2014, 04:10 AM
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Yep, many good points. It might sound a bit philosophical, but the cars I've owned have tended to choose me, not the other way around.
For similar money I can get an '89 944 Turbo, very nice car too. Or a Boxter, the fore mentioned E46 M3, or E36 even, various MR2s, RX-7s and RX-8s, and on and on and on.
But I'll continue my research until conclusion I think, in roughly 2 days I'll have driven a manual version, as Dewolf said, it'll probably transform the car, it is literally same year, same engine, same colour except interior (those with Google could probably find the two cars I'm talking about).
On that note, for some reason wiki states AUS as having a 275bhp 4.7 for the 85 model due to lower fuel grades, but the right pistons would return the 10.4:1 compression. The 86 5.0 Australian car with US engine also seems to be the case though.
I don't know if the weight is noticeable between say, a very early 928 in manual vs. a 928 S 5.0 auto from 86, specs say its 150kgs, but at 1450kgs maybe the early car is already too heavy (for me). It's a shame that engine is only rated at 240bhp, if it had the 300bhp 4.7 engine... This is the thinking that made me think the 1500kgs 84 4.7 manual would be the pick of the bunch.
You could probably say this about many cars, but no less so about a 928 - It's a quint essentially unique and special car, even if it isn't exactly the car I was looking for (this time), it has great looks, history, abilities. I'll drive one or two more and if I find one that I like, consider buying it, otherwise keep my car and think about changing later.
For similar money I can get an '89 944 Turbo, very nice car too. Or a Boxter, the fore mentioned E46 M3, or E36 even, various MR2s, RX-7s and RX-8s, and on and on and on.
But I'll continue my research until conclusion I think, in roughly 2 days I'll have driven a manual version, as Dewolf said, it'll probably transform the car, it is literally same year, same engine, same colour except interior (those with Google could probably find the two cars I'm talking about).
On that note, for some reason wiki states AUS as having a 275bhp 4.7 for the 85 model due to lower fuel grades, but the right pistons would return the 10.4:1 compression. The 86 5.0 Australian car with US engine also seems to be the case though.
I don't know if the weight is noticeable between say, a very early 928 in manual vs. a 928 S 5.0 auto from 86, specs say its 150kgs, but at 1450kgs maybe the early car is already too heavy (for me). It's a shame that engine is only rated at 240bhp, if it had the 300bhp 4.7 engine... This is the thinking that made me think the 1500kgs 84 4.7 manual would be the pick of the bunch.
You could probably say this about many cars, but no less so about a 928 - It's a quint essentially unique and special car, even if it isn't exactly the car I was looking for (this time), it has great looks, history, abilities. I'll drive one or two more and if I find one that I like, consider buying it, otherwise keep my car and think about changing later.
12-14-2014, 05:02 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Do not even think about an E46 M3. They are probably the most flawed BMW to leave the factory. Chassis that wants to tear itself apart, just Google E46 M3 subframe, head gasket failures, vanos failures, rod bearing failures and the list goes on. I would never have another one.
12-14-2014, 05:04 AM
#26
Instructor
I like my S4 over an older version I hold to the belief that Porsche always incrementally improved over time. I'd buy a GTS if I could find a good one I could afford.
I've always found the 928 shrinks in size the harder I've driven it, I may have read that somewhere but it is true.
I've always found the 928 shrinks in size the harder I've driven it, I may have read that somewhere but it is true.
12-14-2014, 02:20 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Any Australian delivered S2 will have EZ-F software that matched the poor fuel quality available in Oz in the mid 80's.
You can recover the performance of a "Euro" by upgraded the EPROM to Euro spec. For even more performance try my 16v performance chip
http://www.jdsporsche.com/16v%20perf...%20EPROMS.html
You can recover the performance of a "Euro" by upgraded the EPROM to Euro spec. For even more performance try my 16v performance chip
http://www.jdsporsche.com/16v%20perf...%20EPROMS.html
12-14-2014, 02:56 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Don't worry about "waxing philosophical" on here. There's currently a thread about a guy asking for sympathy because his car left of the back of a flatbed. Not advice or instructions, just sympathy. And he's getting a fair amount.
The 928 might not be the right "fit" for you. We love them with all our heart & soul, but that's a personal choice.
They are a bigger & heavier car. And while the power is there, they don't have the "quickness" that lighter cars (MR2, Golf, 944, ect) have.
Make sure you drive a "good" one before you dismiss them though. The difference between a well sorted, properly performing example and a "pig" are pretty noticeable.
I've had an MR2, it's like a go-kart. I currently have a 944 (non-turbo) in addition to my 928. They are very different cars. The 944 is very agile, quick and "communicative." I get more feedback and "feel" from it, at the cost of some comfort.
The 944 turbo (951) is supposed to be (I've never driven one) on par with the 928 for power, but having the "quickness" and lightweight qualities of the 944. If those qualities are what appeal to you it might be a good fit.
That doesn't mean that the 928 isn't those things, it just does them differently. It "feels" bigger. More refined, quieter and more comfortable.
The 928 might not be the right "fit" for you. We love them with all our heart & soul, but that's a personal choice.
They are a bigger & heavier car. And while the power is there, they don't have the "quickness" that lighter cars (MR2, Golf, 944, ect) have.
Make sure you drive a "good" one before you dismiss them though. The difference between a well sorted, properly performing example and a "pig" are pretty noticeable.
I've had an MR2, it's like a go-kart. I currently have a 944 (non-turbo) in addition to my 928. They are very different cars. The 944 is very agile, quick and "communicative." I get more feedback and "feel" from it, at the cost of some comfort.
The 944 turbo (951) is supposed to be (I've never driven one) on par with the 928 for power, but having the "quickness" and lightweight qualities of the 944. If those qualities are what appeal to you it might be a good fit.
That doesn't mean that the 928 isn't those things, it just does them differently. It "feels" bigger. More refined, quieter and more comfortable.
12-19-2014, 09:56 AM
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@DeWolf Yes, sorry for the delay, I only drove the car yesterday, it's been a long week.
So this car had a slightly different problem, manual was fine, mechanically it was mostly fine except it had a flat spot between 3 and 5 grand, once it went to 6 it was fine. Felt like it was riding the cam, but that's obviously impossible, especially flat out, it just hiccuped after 5 (had an extra big bite of power) -Owner was up front about it too, which was great.
Unfortunately it was raining, (wipers were...adequate I guess) where the car lives, had narrow roads with cars parked on both sides, and wow it had a worn clutch, I'd say that or... the 2nd bite point was something like between 90-95% take up, but combined with being very heavy also made it a bit irritating, and on a hill with the handbrake it just wouldn't move at all before then.
Then, it did have that He-man throttle, I don't think it was quite as bad, but still fairly long, heavy, and I would say some slack in it too at the beginning.
Oh, and dogleg gear box, with no reverse lock out? :S I find this so strange, especially because the 911 had moved on from dog-legs in 1972 if memory serves? So they had a good 6 years while finishing the 928 to use that gearbox instead, its inclusion puzzles me.
It was certainly lighter than the automatic but not enough. I think the lightness and smallness factor is what is doing it, which is a shame because even if it wasn't what I was expecting, I still adore these cars. It didn't help that this one also had a 'letterbox' overhead, so I just fitted in with the seat at a height I could see over the dash, comfortably. I liked that the seat was manual, until I learnt that it was actually still partially electric :/.
So, not feeling the 928 grab right now. If I had more space, and much more money, I'd transform/restore a 928 to make it as good as a stock OEM car can be, but just don't have the time or really the money, would rather a properly sorted one... that isn't an S4/GT/S at $50-90k.
@Wisconsin Joe - Yes, a 951 (finally get it now, 924+7= 931 (924 turbo), 944+7=951 (944 turbo)) would be a better sports car in a few ways, I doubt the suspension would be as sophisticated, but being a car designed later, having I think literally half the block of a 928 in its 2.5 litre engine, lighter and not needing to one-up the 911 with comfort or other concerns, means it could be more what I'm after.
I wonder how turbo (spool) lag would be? my GTI would've probably spoilt my taste for what a reasonable amount is. And it fixes all the things of the 924, to me, wider shoulders and hips, stronger engines.
Then there's the 968 of course too, haven't researched them enough recently, they also occupy a double price bracket of the other two cars in Australia (early 928s, and 944 turbos are 10-15k-ish, 968s can get well into 50k territory).
I do like the shape too, it is nice, still doesn't get me as excited as a 928s shape though, not quite.
@MFranke Side note, that Silver S4 is lightyears better looking than I've seen others, is it stock? Might just be that colour, I actually like the look of it, very cool.
So this car had a slightly different problem, manual was fine, mechanically it was mostly fine except it had a flat spot between 3 and 5 grand, once it went to 6 it was fine. Felt like it was riding the cam, but that's obviously impossible, especially flat out, it just hiccuped after 5 (had an extra big bite of power) -Owner was up front about it too, which was great.
Unfortunately it was raining, (wipers were...adequate I guess) where the car lives, had narrow roads with cars parked on both sides, and wow it had a worn clutch, I'd say that or... the 2nd bite point was something like between 90-95% take up, but combined with being very heavy also made it a bit irritating, and on a hill with the handbrake it just wouldn't move at all before then.
Then, it did have that He-man throttle, I don't think it was quite as bad, but still fairly long, heavy, and I would say some slack in it too at the beginning.
Oh, and dogleg gear box, with no reverse lock out? :S I find this so strange, especially because the 911 had moved on from dog-legs in 1972 if memory serves? So they had a good 6 years while finishing the 928 to use that gearbox instead, its inclusion puzzles me.
It was certainly lighter than the automatic but not enough. I think the lightness and smallness factor is what is doing it, which is a shame because even if it wasn't what I was expecting, I still adore these cars. It didn't help that this one also had a 'letterbox' overhead, so I just fitted in with the seat at a height I could see over the dash, comfortably. I liked that the seat was manual, until I learnt that it was actually still partially electric :/.
So, not feeling the 928 grab right now. If I had more space, and much more money, I'd transform/restore a 928 to make it as good as a stock OEM car can be, but just don't have the time or really the money, would rather a properly sorted one... that isn't an S4/GT/S at $50-90k.
@Wisconsin Joe - Yes, a 951 (finally get it now, 924+7= 931 (924 turbo), 944+7=951 (944 turbo)) would be a better sports car in a few ways, I doubt the suspension would be as sophisticated, but being a car designed later, having I think literally half the block of a 928 in its 2.5 litre engine, lighter and not needing to one-up the 911 with comfort or other concerns, means it could be more what I'm after.
I wonder how turbo (spool) lag would be? my GTI would've probably spoilt my taste for what a reasonable amount is. And it fixes all the things of the 924, to me, wider shoulders and hips, stronger engines.
Then there's the 968 of course too, haven't researched them enough recently, they also occupy a double price bracket of the other two cars in Australia (early 928s, and 944 turbos are 10-15k-ish, 968s can get well into 50k territory).
I do like the shape too, it is nice, still doesn't get me as excited as a 928s shape though, not quite.
@MFranke Side note, that Silver S4 is lightyears better looking than I've seen others, is it stock? Might just be that colour, I actually like the look of it, very cool.