Alternative to Final Stage/Fan Controller For Engine Cooling.
08-18-2014, 04:40 PM
#1
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Alternative to Final Stage/Fan Controller For Engine Cooling.
Guys,
The following is a thread on how I addressed a failure of the final stage. I considered rebuilding the final stage, but was dissuaded for I was told that the FET circuitry was rated for 20 amp like the original, and didn't want it to protect my 30 amp fuse. After researching I decided on the FK-95 dc controller unit from Delta Control in Campbell, CA.
http://www.dccontrol.com/constant_te...ontrollers.htm
What follows is my experience with its installation.
I chose to put the controller in the same locale as the old final stage. It is a ventilated area. Brian Baskin, the engineer of DC controls stated that ventilation and potential overheating would not be an issue - says the circuitry is designed to electrical industry standard and is rated for up to 155 C deg. (310 F).
The radiator temp sensor which drives the variable speed fan control is placed in the same area as the Porsche sensor (bottom Left). I opted to drill a hole in the shroud and place the sensor through there. It is below the air stream of the fan and is easily accessible. You can visualize its seating in the radiator by use of a mirror. I 'widened' the seat gingerly in the radiator fins with a small screwdriver - then I seated sensor to appropriate depth - I then gave a little 'squeeze' of the fins with a small needle nose plier. I then 'secured' the sensor by grometting the hole and fixing the sensor wire to it with an acrylate gel - this leaves no room or play for the sensor to 'back out' - if one has to remove, the acrylate comes off as a hard plaque with a small screwdriver.
The unit has a standard connector for AC activation. It runs the fans at 50% when AC button pushed. I tied this into pin 86 of my secondary relay I had installed next to the air pump filter in its black box. This made it easier than monkeying around with the little black compressor feed wire.
The unit has an additional pin for listed for increased fan speed when AC activated. It can be used to receive any analog voltage though. I tied the torque converter temp switch, the intake temp switch, and the high pressure refrigerant temp switch into this pin (#12) for additional cooling if sensed and tripped by these switches. As these three switches are grounded, I tied them together and had them connect via pin 85 of a standard SPST relay. This was done at the fan controller under the passenger seat. The intake and ATF temp wires are connected together and attach to pin 3 (they are Brown/Blue). The high pressure refrigerant wire is a Brown/Green and goes to pin 4. IN THE WSM (19-22) THEY ARE LISTED AS BEING ON PLUG I BUT ARE ACTUALLY ON PLUG II. I had done the controller and final stage diagnostics through pins on Plug I and the results were compatible with what I had in the car. It must have been a typo. The line off pin 87 of the relay went to feed the input on pin 12 of the dc controller. Power to the relay was via pins 30 and 86 off fuse 3 of the CE Panel. This is an X bus power source and is ignition switched/starter off source - less of a drain on starting. This configuration was suggested by Alan. A add-a-fuse connector was placed in fuse 3 on the CE panel with a line that made the connecting easy. I used a small 5 amp fuse in the top slot - this current then comes off the line and was easy to get connected to the relay.
Well, on startup both fans came on at 50% when I pushed the AC button - that was a good start. Turned AC off and let run to operating temp. The fans came on a little sooner than I expected at a low % output - quiet as a mouse. Let car run for about 30 mins to operating temp and I could not sense an increase in fan speed - temp gauge was at the first line where I usually run - the initial setting on the dc control unit is for activation at 180 F - it is easily adjusted from the 180 to 160 to 210 F.
Below are two pertinent pics as the rest of the work is generic wiring etc.
I will update as the the car runs with the unit.
And yes...
'I have...'
The following is a thread on how I addressed a failure of the final stage. I considered rebuilding the final stage, but was dissuaded for I was told that the FET circuitry was rated for 20 amp like the original, and didn't want it to protect my 30 amp fuse. After researching I decided on the FK-95 dc controller unit from Delta Control in Campbell, CA.
http://www.dccontrol.com/constant_te...ontrollers.htm
What follows is my experience with its installation.
I chose to put the controller in the same locale as the old final stage. It is a ventilated area. Brian Baskin, the engineer of DC controls stated that ventilation and potential overheating would not be an issue - says the circuitry is designed to electrical industry standard and is rated for up to 155 C deg. (310 F).
The radiator temp sensor which drives the variable speed fan control is placed in the same area as the Porsche sensor (bottom Left). I opted to drill a hole in the shroud and place the sensor through there. It is below the air stream of the fan and is easily accessible. You can visualize its seating in the radiator by use of a mirror. I 'widened' the seat gingerly in the radiator fins with a small screwdriver - then I seated sensor to appropriate depth - I then gave a little 'squeeze' of the fins with a small needle nose plier. I then 'secured' the sensor by grometting the hole and fixing the sensor wire to it with an acrylate gel - this leaves no room or play for the sensor to 'back out' - if one has to remove, the acrylate comes off as a hard plaque with a small screwdriver.
The unit has a standard connector for AC activation. It runs the fans at 50% when AC button pushed. I tied this into pin 86 of my secondary relay I had installed next to the air pump filter in its black box. This made it easier than monkeying around with the little black compressor feed wire.
The unit has an additional pin for listed for increased fan speed when AC activated. It can be used to receive any analog voltage though. I tied the torque converter temp switch, the intake temp switch, and the high pressure refrigerant temp switch into this pin (#12) for additional cooling if sensed and tripped by these switches. As these three switches are grounded, I tied them together and had them connect via pin 85 of a standard SPST relay. This was done at the fan controller under the passenger seat. The intake and ATF temp wires are connected together and attach to pin 3 (they are Brown/Blue). The high pressure refrigerant wire is a Brown/Green and goes to pin 4. IN THE WSM (19-22) THEY ARE LISTED AS BEING ON PLUG I BUT ARE ACTUALLY ON PLUG II. I had done the controller and final stage diagnostics through pins on Plug I and the results were compatible with what I had in the car. It must have been a typo. The line off pin 87 of the relay went to feed the input on pin 12 of the dc controller. Power to the relay was via pins 30 and 86 off fuse 3 of the CE Panel. This is an X bus power source and is ignition switched/starter off source - less of a drain on starting. This configuration was suggested by Alan. A add-a-fuse connector was placed in fuse 3 on the CE panel with a line that made the connecting easy. I used a small 5 amp fuse in the top slot - this current then comes off the line and was easy to get connected to the relay.
Well, on startup both fans came on at 50% when I pushed the AC button - that was a good start. Turned AC off and let run to operating temp. The fans came on a little sooner than I expected at a low % output - quiet as a mouse. Let car run for about 30 mins to operating temp and I could not sense an increase in fan speed - temp gauge was at the first line where I usually run - the initial setting on the dc control unit is for activation at 180 F - it is easily adjusted from the 180 to 160 to 210 F.
Below are two pertinent pics as the rest of the work is generic wiring etc.
I will update as the the car runs with the unit.
And yes...
'I have...'
Last edited by MainePorsche; 08-19-2014 at 12:41 PM.
08-18-2014, 06:21 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Now that I've showered up and finally sat down, I'd like to give a special thanks to Alan. His prowess is renowned and deserved, and enough can't be said about his willingness to help.
Also to Jon who kept me confident in my choice.
Also to Jon who kept me confident in my choice.
08-18-2014, 07:45 PM
#4
Drifting
Well done Craig! What you did with all the original sensor inputs (per Alan's advice) in the late planning stage (i.e. just a few days before diving in!) is impressive. This is a no compromise solution. Could be a game changer for S4 owners (resale value considerations might cause some GTS owners to repair the OEM system).
Did you take additional photos of what you described in your original post? I'd like to see what you did next to the passenger seat at the box, at the panel, and where you located the inline fuses.
It will be interesting to see what speed the fans run at most of the time. They run almost continuously, but at lower speeds than the OEM system cycling ON/OFF. Must be much quieter.
This is really cool!
Did you take additional photos of what you described in your original post? I'd like to see what you did next to the passenger seat at the box, at the panel, and where you located the inline fuses.
It will be interesting to see what speed the fans run at most of the time. They run almost continuously, but at lower speeds than the OEM system cycling ON/OFF. Must be much quieter.
This is really cool!
08-18-2014, 09:09 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Well done Craig! What you did with all the original sensor inputs (per Alan's advice) in the late planning stage (i.e. just a few days before diving in!) is impressive. This is a no compromise solution. Could be a game changer for S4 owners (resale value considerations might cause some GTS owners to repair the OEM system).
Did you take additional photos of what you described in your original post? I'd like to see what you did next to the passenger seat at the box, at the panel, and where you located the inline fuses.
It will be interesting to see what speed the fans run at most of the time. They run almost continuously, but at lower speeds than the OEM system cycling ON/OFF. Must be much quieter.
This is really cool!
Did you take additional photos of what you described in your original post? I'd like to see what you did next to the passenger seat at the box, at the panel, and where you located the inline fuses.
It will be interesting to see what speed the fans run at most of the time. They run almost continuously, but at lower speeds than the OEM system cycling ON/OFF. Must be much quieter.
This is really cool!
No big deals about the relay off the old fan controller or the inline fuse placement.
I found the atf, intake, and refrigerant feeds to the controller on the WD's. There were tied into a single connector that went to 85 (ground) of the relay. Alan said in a PM that they did NOT require directional diodes. The switching and power line to the relay were off fuse 3 on the CE Panel. I placed two female spades on the one line to the relay.
Re the inline fuses, this was straightforward. I used 10 awg to feed the fans in parallel - Two outlines from the dc unit - each one fused. If one goes down, still have the other fan to keep the peace. I used the same clips on the shroud to button them in - some slight alterations and nylon ties employed. The two inline fuses reside at the base of the R fan shroud - easy to inspect/access once the belly pan off. The inline fuse for the power line to the unit is tucked in just lateral to the square rubber hood bumper seen in the pic. The power line uses the same clip to the body that the old amplifier cable used. I used the same bolts as the old amplifier used, and even used one same hole. The new hole was the one on the L in the pic. All lines protected with the split loom covers - bought quite a bit of it.
08-18-2014, 09:15 PM
#6
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Is this a project we can turn into a kit for the "electrically challenged" owners?
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
08-18-2014, 10:57 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
It does require a fair amount of quality crimping work. Just like Brian of dc controls did, you can sent out lines of specific length with ringlets to connect already crimped. His lines were enough to connect to the fan harness lines with length to spare. I re-did all my fan lines so required more. I would recommend new lines for the fans - the dc lines provided are 10 awg standard or 8 awg as an option - the 10 awg were a PITA to crimp to the smaller original fan lines - by using 10 awg throughout the crimped connectors were all more uniform to deal with. The one PITA issue with the job is getting the line from the multi sensor relay at the old fan controller out to the dc controller unit which I parked under the hood.
Add:
You'd need the controller unit (comes with 2 red/2black lines - about 3 ft each, radiator sensor, 3 pin AC/optional/temp control adjuster voltage measurement - connector, some small washers/brackets/screws etc.), SPST relay (small 10 amp would do), add-a-fuse connector (with instruction), and instructions.
The miscellaneous spades, shrink wrap, nylon ties, wire protectors can come from the purchaser - they may want to individualize there own construction.
Last edited by MainePorsche; 08-19-2014 at 12:10 AM.
Trending Topics
08-18-2014, 11:16 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Also, put the car through its paces - pick some good sh!tty bumpy roads - the radiator sensor held well. Drove it like I stole it and it wouldn't get hot...at all.
08-18-2014, 11:17 PM
#9
Electron Wrangler
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Craig do you still have the flap motor in place & functional (cooling flaps..)?
If not then you can remove the interior fan controller module and repurpose its wiring to the final stage for your purposes.
I'd expect that this is a very reasonable assumption to make in general, except in very very cold areas the flap motor was a solution to a problem that hardly exisits, and an overheat waiting to happen.
Porsche deleting this on later models suggest that they didn't see huge utility either (and wanted to save some costs).
So for S4+ I think a kit could assume deletion of both the fan controller and final stages. The new relay could mount inside where the fan controller used to be and the fan controller fuse could be utilized for this. The other connections from the sensors to the new relay are already located there.
If you want the wiring to look a bit more like stock get vinyl loom sleeving like this waytek - vinyl sleeve. Various sizes available...
Alan
If not then you can remove the interior fan controller module and repurpose its wiring to the final stage for your purposes.
I'd expect that this is a very reasonable assumption to make in general, except in very very cold areas the flap motor was a solution to a problem that hardly exisits, and an overheat waiting to happen.
Porsche deleting this on later models suggest that they didn't see huge utility either (and wanted to save some costs).
So for S4+ I think a kit could assume deletion of both the fan controller and final stages. The new relay could mount inside where the fan controller used to be and the fan controller fuse could be utilized for this. The other connections from the sensors to the new relay are already located there.
If you want the wiring to look a bit more like stock get vinyl loom sleeving like this waytek - vinyl sleeve. Various sizes available...
Alan
08-18-2014, 11:22 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Craig do you still have the flap motor in place & functional (cooling flaps..).
If not then you can remove the interior fan controller modul and repurpose its wiring to the final stage for your purposes.
I'd expect that this is a very resonable assumption to make in general, except in very very cold areas the flap motor was a solution to a problem that hardly exisits, and an overheat waiting to happen.
Porsche deleting this on later models suggest that they didn't see huge utility either (and wanted to save some costs).
So for S4+ I think a kit could assume deletion of both the fan controller and final stages. The new relay could mount inside where the fan controller used to be and the fan controller fuse could be utilized for this. The other connections from the sensors to the new relay are already located there.
Alan
If not then you can remove the interior fan controller modul and repurpose its wiring to the final stage for your purposes.
I'd expect that this is a very resonable assumption to make in general, except in very very cold areas the flap motor was a solution to a problem that hardly exisits, and an overheat waiting to happen.
Porsche deleting this on later models suggest that they didn't see huge utility either (and wanted to save some costs).
So for S4+ I think a kit could assume deletion of both the fan controller and final stages. The new relay could mount inside where the fan controller used to be and the fan controller fuse could be utilized for this. The other connections from the sensors to the new relay are already located there.
Alan
I pulled that fuse long ago.
I wanted to get the car back on the road so after I finished the job, tested it at idle, I took it for some test runs. Will remove the controller when I can - there is plenty of room under the passenger side console so the little relay had no trouble in finding a place to reside.
08-18-2014, 11:51 PM
#11
Drifting
Alan - You wrote:
Yes!
I've been testing and troubleshooting my system and am familiar with most of what Craig did - conceptually. But a "Dwayne-style" tutorial would be nice....or a specific wiring kit from Roger with directions and complete wiring and components kit (DC controller purchased separately, perhaps). I'm not getting a clear image of what's going on with the "new relay", though I'm sure it's straightforward. I just know the sensor inputs all go into the relay and then a wire from the relay connects to the DC controller on an available pin. Still feeling I have a vague understanding. For those of us without much electrical experience, it would be difficult to pull off without good DIY instructions with pictures.
It's likely I'll be attempting this install myself over the winter.
Thank you again for providing critical information and suggestions that made it possible to retain all the original sensor functions.
So for S4+ I think a kit could assume deletion of both the fan controller and final stages. The new relay could mount inside where the fan controller used to be and the fan controller fuse could be utilized for this. The other connections from the sensors to the new relay are already located there.
I've been testing and troubleshooting my system and am familiar with most of what Craig did - conceptually. But a "Dwayne-style" tutorial would be nice....or a specific wiring kit from Roger with directions and complete wiring and components kit (DC controller purchased separately, perhaps). I'm not getting a clear image of what's going on with the "new relay", though I'm sure it's straightforward. I just know the sensor inputs all go into the relay and then a wire from the relay connects to the DC controller on an available pin. Still feeling I have a vague understanding. For those of us without much electrical experience, it would be difficult to pull off without good DIY instructions with pictures.
It's likely I'll be attempting this install myself over the winter.
Thank you again for providing critical information and suggestions that made it possible to retain all the original sensor functions.
08-19-2014, 12:28 AM
#12
maybe it is to late in the day for my brain to work.... are you using the DC unit to replace the stock units function? mine is wired stand alone. Power, Ground, AC wire....
08-19-2014, 12:37 AM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Jon,
Yes you're right. I didn't do a 'Dwayne like' write up. Have much going on now - we're taking our baby girl to her college dorm on Wed - son and I are heading to another state in 10 days as part of our family's relocation (wife to follow shortly) - no good camera - had to wait for one of the family to be around with there iPhone for the two pics I did take.
Most of the job is straightforward off of dc's instructions. The relay business at the passenger seat fan controller is as described to the 30, 85, 86 & 87 pins. Most of the thought and work is the feeding of wires, crimping - simply the 'mechanics' of hooking things up. The mechanics of securing the radiator sensor is but one way of doing it. I thought it was reasonable for the location was correct, visualizing was direct, and dealing with it if you have to was easy. Carl (FLYVMO) opts to place it on the front surface of the radiator, but he has the vehicle stripped and can readily do this - I did not want to remove the radiator for this, and wanted to easily access the sensor if I had to.
Yes you're right. I didn't do a 'Dwayne like' write up. Have much going on now - we're taking our baby girl to her college dorm on Wed - son and I are heading to another state in 10 days as part of our family's relocation (wife to follow shortly) - no good camera - had to wait for one of the family to be around with there iPhone for the two pics I did take.
Most of the job is straightforward off of dc's instructions. The relay business at the passenger seat fan controller is as described to the 30, 85, 86 & 87 pins. Most of the thought and work is the feeding of wires, crimping - simply the 'mechanics' of hooking things up. The mechanics of securing the radiator sensor is but one way of doing it. I thought it was reasonable for the location was correct, visualizing was direct, and dealing with it if you have to was easy. Carl (FLYVMO) opts to place it on the front surface of the radiator, but he has the vehicle stripped and can readily do this - I did not want to remove the radiator for this, and wanted to easily access the sensor if I had to.
08-19-2014, 12:45 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
The amplifier is out of the vehicle and though the fan controller is still sitting there, both plugs are disconnected as I've utilized the wires of the pins 3 & 4 Plug II to attach to a relay so that sensing of the intake, torque converter, and refrigerant temps can be fed to the new dc controller - these feed pin 12 on the dc controller to automatically augment fan speed to/by 10 %.
Add: actually I placed an add-a-fuse to the fan controller fuse (#3) on the CE Panel so I could feed X bus switched ignition power to the relay. This new accessory is fused at 5 amp. I did not replace the fuse for the 'old' fan controller so that silver box is now in repose.
Last edited by MainePorsche; 08-19-2014 at 01:01 AM.