New headers/exhaust for the '85/'86 people! Updated with baseline dyno charts.
05-28-2014, 04:44 PM
#46
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I did not see the additional questions of this edited post.
Obviously, the engine was running lean. S3s cannot self-adjust so it up to the installer to verify correct running parameters.
Did you plug the LH harness plugs together as I posted here (and as the website says to do for dyno runs)?
Was the MAF CO adjusted after the chips were installed? How many ohms?
What spark plugs were used? WR5DC are recommended.
Correct plugs, as suggested. LH harness plugs together. Didn't fuss with the CO on the MAF, other than to get correct idle fuel quantity. This adjustment mostly controls the idle mixture and has such tiny affect on WOT mixture that it isn't worth talking about.....plus in order to get realistic results, the silly engine has to be able to idle.... and not drip fuel out of the tail pipes.
BTW, putting 'a giant fan over the intake system' is NOT what I suggested and may have actually made things worse. A targeted airflow is what is required. A huge fan could serve to blow hot air forward and into the air intakes.
Obviously, the engine was running lean. S3s cannot self-adjust so it up to the installer to verify correct running parameters.
Did you plug the LH harness plugs together as I posted here (and as the website says to do for dyno runs)?
Was the MAF CO adjusted after the chips were installed? How many ohms?
What spark plugs were used? WR5DC are recommended.
Correct plugs, as suggested. LH harness plugs together. Didn't fuss with the CO on the MAF, other than to get correct idle fuel quantity. This adjustment mostly controls the idle mixture and has such tiny affect on WOT mixture that it isn't worth talking about.....plus in order to get realistic results, the silly engine has to be able to idle.... and not drip fuel out of the tail pipes.
BTW, putting 'a giant fan over the intake system' is NOT what I suggested and may have actually made things worse. A targeted airflow is what is required. A huge fan could serve to blow hot air forward and into the air intakes.
You know....I'm really sorry you don't understand this.....and you refuse to listen to anyone about anything. However, building engines and pieces for engines then and testing them isn't a brand new concept to me. I've been building and testing high performance Porsche engines and Porsche parts longer than you've been alive.
I seen hundreds of people and shops (literally) come and go, over the years, making claims that they can't support. Making pieces that don't work. They hang around until the failures start showing up....and then they simply disappear. Pick up a Panorama from 1975, 1985, or even 1995. Go through them and look at the advertisers and count how many of those shops/people are still around.
Now.......Back to the thread about making headers and adding horsepower that everyone can use....without hopping on one foot counterclockwise while the solar eclipse is happening.
__________________
greg brown
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Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 05-28-2014 at 05:01 PM.
05-28-2014, 04:47 PM
#47
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Since temperature appears to be such a variable, this really points to needing to do individual tuning for each vehicle....like the Sharktuner does.
I live and tune in Southern California, with higher daily temperatures than you would experience in your farther north location. I can't rely on a 50 degree rainy day to get dyno bragging stuff.....nor do I want that. I want people to have expectations that are realistic.
My eyebrows went up, when you said that you were adding timing to your chips to get increased power.
I've had to remove timing on every single engine that I've tuned.....stock or high performance.
I live and tune in Southern California, with higher daily temperatures than you would experience in your farther north location. I can't rely on a 50 degree rainy day to get dyno bragging stuff.....nor do I want that. I want people to have expectations that are realistic.
My eyebrows went up, when you said that you were adding timing to your chips to get increased power.
I've had to remove timing on every single engine that I've tuned.....stock or high performance.
Advance at peak TQ and HP is much lower than stock with the S300s chips. It is reprogrammed to be variable by air temperature and load.
Note that another problem with running on the dyno is the RPM/load relationship vs. out the road is different, meaning fueling on the dyno will be different. I tune for the street for summer temps.
I understand your goal, but it is impossible to get even good comparison results without controlling the air temperature.
(This is not the same as the SAE/STD/DIN conversion factor.)
Correct plugs, as suggested. LH harness plugs together. Didn't fuss with the CO on the MAF, other than to get correct idle fuel quantity. This adjustment mostly controls the idle mixture and has such tiny affect on WOT mixture that it isn't worth talking about.....plus in order to get realistic results, the silly engine has to be able to idle.... and not drip fuel out of the tail pipes.
Last edited by PorKen; 05-28-2014 at 05:30 PM.
05-28-2014, 05:05 PM
#48
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Using the low octane plug gives you a 3deg retard. The air temp sensor is VERY slow as you say, and I replaced it with a direct replacement which I showed pictures of in a previous thread. In fact the time constant figures I gave earlier were with that new sensor , thanks for reminding me :-)
A better way to tune is not to use the octane loop connector but to substitute a fixed resistor for the temp 1 sensor. Then as long as you keep intake temperatures under control you can tune with final maps, and then activate the temp retard.
We have modified the standard map of retard versus air temp so that instead of being almost switch like at a certain temp we can graduate retard in the desired range of temps.
A better way to tune is not to use the octane loop connector but to substitute a fixed resistor for the temp 1 sensor. Then as long as you keep intake temperatures under control you can tune with final maps, and then activate the temp retard.
We have modified the standard map of retard versus air temp so that instead of being almost switch like at a certain temp we can graduate retard in the desired range of temps.
You have another option with the 85/86 cars.
When tuning with a shark tuner, simply turn the air intake temp sensor off, take it out of the equation. Then turn it back on when everything is tuned.
The whole point of that sensor is to protect the motor from excessive heat from whatever the baseline is set to. It's the same circuit as the low octane fuel loop.
It's more of a "dummy" switch anyway, above X degrees it takes out Y timing. It doesn't have separate maps based on temperature.
When doing this, it's a good idea to have a secondary sensor (one that is more sensitive than the stock one, which is pathetically slow) in the intake tract to make sure you are not feeding it unrealistically hot (or cool) air.
At least that is what I did with my 81, which has the same electronics as the 85/86 (EuroS version). I think I had three different temp sensors on my car when tuning it.
When tuning with a shark tuner, simply turn the air intake temp sensor off, take it out of the equation. Then turn it back on when everything is tuned.
The whole point of that sensor is to protect the motor from excessive heat from whatever the baseline is set to. It's the same circuit as the low octane fuel loop.
It's more of a "dummy" switch anyway, above X degrees it takes out Y timing. It doesn't have separate maps based on temperature.
When doing this, it's a good idea to have a secondary sensor (one that is more sensitive than the stock one, which is pathetically slow) in the intake tract to make sure you are not feeding it unrealistically hot (or cool) air.
At least that is what I did with my 81, which has the same electronics as the 85/86 (EuroS version). I think I had three different temp sensors on my car when tuning it.
05-28-2014, 05:09 PM
#49
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Instead of using the resistor, I either zeroed out the timing retard in the air temp sender box, or I raised up the temp to such a goofy number it would never come into play.
Either option accomplishes the same thing.
I didn't do anything with the low octane loop, I just used that as an example of what the temp sensor does (probably a bad example....)
The stock sensor is so slow, I doubt it really does anything useful. I like the idea of installing a faster sensor.
05-28-2014, 05:26 PM
#50
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I put a box fan over the engine....slightly bigger than the one in your picture....there was no chance of hot air getting into the intake, as I separated the intake tubes from the fan, so neither radiator nor fan heat could get in.
Now.......Back to the thread about making headers and adding horsepower that everyone can use....without hopping on one foot counterclockwise while the solar eclipse is happening.
Now.......Back to the thread about making headers and adding horsepower that everyone can use....without hopping on one foot counterclockwise while the solar eclipse is happening.
Results would have been much different had the AFR been in the high 12's as designed.
It sounds like you have made up your mind...perhaps even before the test...but I can still send a richer WOT LH chip along with the WOT adjuster.
Otherwise, carry on.
05-28-2014, 05:46 PM
#51
The WOT adjuster was very useful for me. But I had to have 40% more fuel, so....
05-28-2014, 06:30 PM
#52
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If the tubes were not able to pull reversion air from the radiator, then good.
Results would have been much different had the AFR been in the high 12's as designed.
It sounds like you have made up your mind...perhaps even before the test...but I can still send a richer WOT LH chip along with the WOT adjuster.
Otherwise, carry on.
Results would have been much different had the AFR been in the high 12's as designed.
It sounds like you have made up your mind...perhaps even before the test...but I can still send a richer WOT LH chip along with the WOT adjuster.
Otherwise, carry on.
I'm testing what I was given to work with....chips, intake spacers, and fuel pressure regulator I'd LOVE to be able to use your chips, for this application....making chips on the Sharktuner for these "early" cars is cumbersome....and if we had something that was 90% correct, it would make my life so much easier.
So, if you have some way to add fuel, it would be great to have it.
I'm trying to do realistic testing, in an unrealistic environment...the dyno....so I'm all ears....trying to learn anything I can learn. (I'm trying to do what you say to do.)
Another question.....do you anticipate that we could run out of fuel with the headers/your chips and need to go to a larger injector?
05-28-2014, 06:34 PM
#53
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Using the low octane plug gives you a 3deg retard. The air temp sensor is VERY slow as you say, and I replaced it with a direct replacement which I showed pictures of in a previous thread. In fact the time constant figures I gave earlier were with that new sensor , thanks for reminding me :-)
A better way to tune is not to use the octane loop connector but to substitute a fixed resistor for the temp 1 sensor. Then as long as you keep intake temperatures under control you can tune with final maps, and then activate the temp retard.
We have modified the standard map of retard versus air temp so that instead of being almost switch like at a certain temp we can graduate retard in the desired range of temps.
A better way to tune is not to use the octane loop connector but to substitute a fixed resistor for the temp 1 sensor. Then as long as you keep intake temperatures under control you can tune with final maps, and then activate the temp retard.
We have modified the standard map of retard versus air temp so that instead of being almost switch like at a certain temp we can graduate retard in the desired range of temps.
05-28-2014, 08:56 PM
#55
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Of course, those that know me well are aware that genetically, I got "cheated" when they passed out the "fight or flight" genes...I got absolutely none of the "flight" genes.
05-29-2014, 06:27 AM
#56
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Yes, the nearest standard value would be 2,700 ohms (2k7) . No power involved so a 1/4 or 1/2 watt would be fine and not too fiddly small :-)
05-29-2014, 06:31 AM
#57
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My apologies to Greg for this "sub plot" while he fits the headers to the test car. The Bosch part number for the faster sensor is 0 280 130 085. It is not a screw in replacement, I had to drill out the threaded insert in the lower air box and then glue the new one in place.
Here's the pictures:-
Here's the pictures:-
Ah yes, now I remember talking to you about this after I tuned my car.
Instead of using the resistor, I either zeroed out the timing retard in the air temp sender box, or I raised up the temp to such a goofy number it would never come into play.
Either option accomplishes the same thing.
I didn't do anything with the low octane loop, I just used that as an example of what the temp sensor does (probably a bad example....)
The stock sensor is so slow, I doubt it really does anything useful. I like the idea of installing a faster sensor.
Instead of using the resistor, I either zeroed out the timing retard in the air temp sender box, or I raised up the temp to such a goofy number it would never come into play.
Either option accomplishes the same thing.
I didn't do anything with the low octane loop, I just used that as an example of what the temp sensor does (probably a bad example....)
The stock sensor is so slow, I doubt it really does anything useful. I like the idea of installing a faster sensor.
05-29-2014, 12:56 PM
#58
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My apologies to Greg for this "sub plot" while he fits the headers to the test car. The Bosch part number for the faster sensor is 0 280 130 085. It is not a screw in replacement, I had to drill out the threaded insert in the lower air box and then glue the new one in place.
Here's the pictures:-
Here's the pictures:-
Besides that, we're (actually, no "we"....all Grant) busy fitting and welding.
Headers have moved from "jig" to real block/heads/bell housing to more accurately locate flanges.
Check out this bell housing clearance! Our goal is to be able to toss the lower bell housing, from across the shop, and have it fall into place.
The next step is installation in the chassis for "clearance check", followed by removal for final TIG welding.
It's time consuming (expensive), but needed for a high quality product that both fits and functions.
Last edited by GregBBRD; 05-29-2014 at 03:22 PM.
05-29-2014, 08:25 PM
#60
Good Lord those are nice.
