My 928 Projects Master Thread
07-08-2014, 08:20 PM
#76
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We have recently bought a house and roughly there is the equivalent of 5 medium sized cars internal storage although the space is separated into 3 and 2 by an internal passage which I think is best suited to a workshop and storage. Hope to get that set up nicely with a good bench etc, looking forward to that. It does need some work to achieve all this and I can't personally do this anymore so that means a fair bit of expense!
So I am going to get my wife's car going first with the OBR ECU even though it is complete overkill for that car. I decided to put the OBR in the wife's car due to the fact getting the custom firmware was getting frustrating and Motec then came out with their M1 series ECUs where the customer creates the firmware, as the saying goes, if you want something done right do it yourself.
The wife's car will get my 5.0 litre engine which is getting a tweaking at the moment, there is a thread on another website that shows the progress of the head porting and the science behind it. I may link that at a later date. I am going to convert the early intake tubes to use the four spray hole injectors. Plus we will fit 48 mm valves and try and bump the compression. I am also fitting the King Race Bearings and long with retaining the crank scraper kit. I may also modify the block's filler neck area.
We will have to mill the head and I suspect weld the recess that appears in the early S heads. As I said to the head porter, I would like to be in the 11 to 11.4 to 1 range. This engine in a poor state of tune did around 311 rwhp on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. I am hoping that the heads will improve to be around 10% better on the intake and if I am lucky 15% better on the exhaust. The exhaust is very important as the cams have little overlap.
This engine should be done by the end of the year as long as I don't get more back surgery. That car is an automatic and I will fit the 4 wheel speed sensors for the traction and launch control to hopefully get some good quarter mile times. That is the goal for this year.
However work continues at a reduced pace with the machinist making the replaceable liner block. What he told me is that he has done hundreds of WRX replaceable liner blocks and the 928 is quite similar and made from a similar brittle material. At this stage he says he thinks on making the liners with a separate deck plate like the WRX engines.
I don't know if I can get the 109 mm bore size or stick with 108 mm? Also I may be able to increase the stroke to 96 mm to achieve slightly more than 7.1 litres. This will allow the rev limit to be reduced in the automatic car.
At the same time we are making the flange adaptor plates for the throttle bodies and machining the head for the larger valves and lightweight radiused lifters. He has made the exhaust flanges and will machine off the recessed sealing rings area on the exhaust port. The flange has the recess for the seal ring now but it is not the factory seal ring. I also have bought the camshaft material, which is 722m24 British Standard
If somebody wishes to order a 96 mm hi tech crank please let me know, I have to order in lots of three.
So I am going to get my wife's car going first with the OBR ECU even though it is complete overkill for that car. I decided to put the OBR in the wife's car due to the fact getting the custom firmware was getting frustrating and Motec then came out with their M1 series ECUs where the customer creates the firmware, as the saying goes, if you want something done right do it yourself.
The wife's car will get my 5.0 litre engine which is getting a tweaking at the moment, there is a thread on another website that shows the progress of the head porting and the science behind it. I may link that at a later date. I am going to convert the early intake tubes to use the four spray hole injectors. Plus we will fit 48 mm valves and try and bump the compression. I am also fitting the King Race Bearings and long with retaining the crank scraper kit. I may also modify the block's filler neck area.
We will have to mill the head and I suspect weld the recess that appears in the early S heads. As I said to the head porter, I would like to be in the 11 to 11.4 to 1 range. This engine in a poor state of tune did around 311 rwhp on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. I am hoping that the heads will improve to be around 10% better on the intake and if I am lucky 15% better on the exhaust. The exhaust is very important as the cams have little overlap.
This engine should be done by the end of the year as long as I don't get more back surgery. That car is an automatic and I will fit the 4 wheel speed sensors for the traction and launch control to hopefully get some good quarter mile times. That is the goal for this year.
However work continues at a reduced pace with the machinist making the replaceable liner block. What he told me is that he has done hundreds of WRX replaceable liner blocks and the 928 is quite similar and made from a similar brittle material. At this stage he says he thinks on making the liners with a separate deck plate like the WRX engines.
I don't know if I can get the 109 mm bore size or stick with 108 mm? Also I may be able to increase the stroke to 96 mm to achieve slightly more than 7.1 litres. This will allow the rev limit to be reduced in the automatic car.
At the same time we are making the flange adaptor plates for the throttle bodies and machining the head for the larger valves and lightweight radiused lifters. He has made the exhaust flanges and will machine off the recessed sealing rings area on the exhaust port. The flange has the recess for the seal ring now but it is not the factory seal ring. I also have bought the camshaft material, which is 722m24 British Standard
If somebody wishes to order a 96 mm hi tech crank please let me know, I have to order in lots of three.
07-29-2014, 06:37 AM
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Electric Power Steering and Serpentine belts
I was chatting with a friend of mine and he was telling me of his track day adventures and the this engine revs higher than most would normally take their engines too, that being a touch over 7,000 rpms. The engine lives but the power steer gets a bit unreliable due to what is thought to be cavitation. I have read about this before with other cars that are not designed for rpm band they run in on the track.
After some quick research there is a couple of types of electric power steer, one that simply transplants the engine driven pump for an electric driven pump. This is the type I am thinking about. The other type uses a servo motor in the rack and dispenses with the hydraulics which would be good to avoid fires like some unfortunate owners have had.
It appears that the Mini Cooper pump is often used for this conversion. I suspect this is a basic conversion but the pump must run all the time. Then when you look into the more expensive conversions, I believe they must vary the pumps speed and thus output. This is controlled by an ECU, DC Electronics makes such a system. It is too pricey for me. However there is some configurable ECUs out there like the Adaptronic and the ECU I plan to use, the Motec M150. I do suspect I may run out of input and outputs but I will get to that.....
I think if you were to vary the system's outputs you would need a steering sensor to register that more assistance is required and a algorithm could also be used which could vary the assistance relating to vehicle speed and the speed of the steering input.
In theory with accessories like air pumps and power steer pumps gone, It will be easier to do a serpentine belt. I may use my McLaren Electronics alternator, I can run a 2.4 to 1 ratio given the revs reduction, I don't know if this alternator will provide enough charge during street driving but I believe it is has Nippon Denso mountings so maybe a high street output alternator and then switch the alternator for the track. Just to be clear, the Mclaren puts out a huge amount of charge but only as the revs rise. According to my chart, at 1,500 rpm, my alternator would be putting out around 50 amps, is that enough? At 2,500 it is putting out 80 amps. I suspect it will also have to do with battery capacity.
Also the air cond compressor will be changed and the most modern type installed in conjunction with a parallel flow condenser. Again if a multi rib belt is chosen it will make the serpentine setup possible. The hiccup I see is getting the length of the belt right. I don't think that will be that easy, it certainly wont be quick. This setup will allow me to position my oil tank on the front of the engine, directly on top of the pump so that the pump has always a good gravity feed and when the oil is cold and thick this may be a real benefit.
Lots of research is required to make this work properly.
After some quick research there is a couple of types of electric power steer, one that simply transplants the engine driven pump for an electric driven pump. This is the type I am thinking about. The other type uses a servo motor in the rack and dispenses with the hydraulics which would be good to avoid fires like some unfortunate owners have had.
It appears that the Mini Cooper pump is often used for this conversion. I suspect this is a basic conversion but the pump must run all the time. Then when you look into the more expensive conversions, I believe they must vary the pumps speed and thus output. This is controlled by an ECU, DC Electronics makes such a system. It is too pricey for me. However there is some configurable ECUs out there like the Adaptronic and the ECU I plan to use, the Motec M150. I do suspect I may run out of input and outputs but I will get to that.....
I think if you were to vary the system's outputs you would need a steering sensor to register that more assistance is required and a algorithm could also be used which could vary the assistance relating to vehicle speed and the speed of the steering input.
In theory with accessories like air pumps and power steer pumps gone, It will be easier to do a serpentine belt. I may use my McLaren Electronics alternator, I can run a 2.4 to 1 ratio given the revs reduction, I don't know if this alternator will provide enough charge during street driving but I believe it is has Nippon Denso mountings so maybe a high street output alternator and then switch the alternator for the track. Just to be clear, the Mclaren puts out a huge amount of charge but only as the revs rise. According to my chart, at 1,500 rpm, my alternator would be putting out around 50 amps, is that enough? At 2,500 it is putting out 80 amps. I suspect it will also have to do with battery capacity.
Also the air cond compressor will be changed and the most modern type installed in conjunction with a parallel flow condenser. Again if a multi rib belt is chosen it will make the serpentine setup possible. The hiccup I see is getting the length of the belt right. I don't think that will be that easy, it certainly wont be quick. This setup will allow me to position my oil tank on the front of the engine, directly on top of the pump so that the pump has always a good gravity feed and when the oil is cold and thick this may be a real benefit.
Lots of research is required to make this work properly.
07-30-2014, 03:29 AM
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Hello Greg,
The electric power steering isn't necessary very expensive unit, following stuff is being used by local rally folks. Finding the unit which fits in place may be different thing.
Perhaps this stuff is too cheap for your project
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Steering-C...p3286.c0.m1538
Pls. share also your 5.0L head project, would like very much to see what you have done with it
The electric power steering isn't necessary very expensive unit, following stuff is being used by local rally folks. Finding the unit which fits in place may be different thing.
Perhaps this stuff is too cheap for your project
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Steering-C...p3286.c0.m1538
Pls. share also your 5.0L head project, would like very much to see what you have done with it
07-30-2014, 04:31 AM
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Hello Greg,
The electric power steering isn't necessary very expensive unit, following stuff is being used by local rally folks. Finding the unit which fits in place may be different thing.
Perhaps this stuff is too cheap for your project
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Steering-C...p3286.c0.m1538
Pls. share also your 5.0L head project, would like very much to see what you have done with it
The electric power steering isn't necessary very expensive unit, following stuff is being used by local rally folks. Finding the unit which fits in place may be different thing.
Perhaps this stuff is too cheap for your project
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Steering-C...p3286.c0.m1538
Pls. share also your 5.0L head project, would like very much to see what you have done with it
the electric power steering setups were the type I would have thought is fitted to a non power steering rack. Ours, again I would have thought is best converted just with the pump? As per the video below.
I can send you a link to my heads development, I may put it up here at a later date. It is a pretty basic project compared to the rest of the projects. I will have some pics in the next couple of weeks relating to the brake conversion, Ohlins dampers and exhaust manifold flanges that have been CNCed from 321 stainless for 2 1/8" Pipe.
Last edited by slate blue; 07-30-2014 at 09:21 AM.
07-30-2014, 05:50 AM
#81
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Hello Greg
I looked at the electric conversion with the race car I am building , but quickly discarded it, because they all act on the shaft before the steering rack.
THis I see as a very large problem as this shaft is not designed to take the heavy loads of the power assistance . It would normally have a small input with the stock rack providing the major assistance .
I considered this a very dangerous proposition for a failure under load . Not something that I wanted to find out the hard way.
THe cavitation in the stock arrangement, can be mitigated by adding a larger pulley on the pump and larger diameter v belt , as the engine is at higher revs the low speed assistance is not regularly needed .
I looked at the electric conversion with the race car I am building , but quickly discarded it, because they all act on the shaft before the steering rack.
THis I see as a very large problem as this shaft is not designed to take the heavy loads of the power assistance . It would normally have a small input with the stock rack providing the major assistance .
I considered this a very dangerous proposition for a failure under load . Not something that I wanted to find out the hard way.
THe cavitation in the stock arrangement, can be mitigated by adding a larger pulley on the pump and larger diameter v belt , as the engine is at higher revs the low speed assistance is not regularly needed .
07-30-2014, 09:20 AM
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Hello Greg
I looked at the electric conversion with the race car I am building , but quickly discarded it, because they all act on the shaft before the steering rack.
THis I see as a very large problem as this shaft is not designed to take the heavy loads of the power assistance . It would normally have a small input with the stock rack providing the major assistance .
I considered this a very dangerous proposition for a failure under load . Not something that I wanted to find out the hard way.
THe cavitation in the stock arrangement, can be mitigated by adding a larger pulley on the pump and larger diameter v belt , as the engine is at higher revs the low speed assistance is not regularly needed .
I looked at the electric conversion with the race car I am building , but quickly discarded it, because they all act on the shaft before the steering rack.
THis I see as a very large problem as this shaft is not designed to take the heavy loads of the power assistance . It would normally have a small input with the stock rack providing the major assistance .
I considered this a very dangerous proposition for a failure under load . Not something that I wanted to find out the hard way.
THe cavitation in the stock arrangement, can be mitigated by adding a larger pulley on the pump and larger diameter v belt , as the engine is at higher revs the low speed assistance is not regularly needed .
Click on the link to see what I mean, I have no idea why the youtube link didn't work but that link should. The electric motor used is from the Mini Cooper.
07-30-2014, 06:05 PM
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MMM that the same business that sells the other electric unit , here locally , they didnt mention this one , will forward for a look . Would be interesting if it could be variable .
08-22-2014, 10:24 AM
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Some other interesting parts turned up, with our custom software these parts will adjust the ride height for many purposes. To assess the rake angle of the car for downforce produced, to getting over speed bumps. Once the rake angle has been worked out, settings can be made to run on the street to then different settings for track work and high speed runs. They are fitted to all four dampers.
I am employing the Eibach ERS system, this will give some compliance given the main spring rate will be 1200 front and 500 rear. This compliance will be relatively small and is achieved by double springing. I am hoping the tender springs will compress at speed and lower the ride height to further increase the downforce. Given the ground clearance at that point will be in the 70 mm range, the springs need to be pretty stiff. I am concerned that 1200/500 is too light but......I wont be able to tolerate anymore and nobody will want to ride in the car. The tender springs haven't been worked out yet but may well be front 300 rear 150.
I am employing the Eibach ERS system, this will give some compliance given the main spring rate will be 1200 front and 500 rear. This compliance will be relatively small and is achieved by double springing. I am hoping the tender springs will compress at speed and lower the ride height to further increase the downforce. Given the ground clearance at that point will be in the 70 mm range, the springs need to be pretty stiff. I am concerned that 1200/500 is too light but......I wont be able to tolerate anymore and nobody will want to ride in the car. The tender springs haven't been worked out yet but may well be front 300 rear 150.
08-23-2014, 02:22 AM
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While we are on all things Swedish,
I haven't decided how many stages, should be 5 or 6 but with the separator, the machinist doesn't want to make a dedicated bedplate but just the billet sump. So I have some designing to do. I will buy the custom shafts for the pump when we know the size we can fit. The radiator will be by a extremely good and hi tech company PWR who also make the Red Bull F1 radiators. The radiator will be canted forward to duct the majority or all of the air out of the bonnet.
I haven't decided how many stages, should be 5 or 6 but with the separator, the machinist doesn't want to make a dedicated bedplate but just the billet sump. So I have some designing to do. I will buy the custom shafts for the pump when we know the size we can fit. The radiator will be by a extremely good and hi tech company PWR who also make the Red Bull F1 radiators. The radiator will be canted forward to duct the majority or all of the air out of the bonnet.
08-23-2014, 11:25 AM
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How are you going to get that many pump stages to fit forward of the #1 header tube? Unless it's going where the A/C compresor lives?
08-23-2014, 07:25 PM
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As to the air cond, well things are not totally sorted, I am looking at a brand new compressor out of a Toyota or new GM car using the latest preferably Japanese technology making the pump as small and efficient as possible. I will then look at mounting it further forward from the headers above the pump. I already use a parallel flow condenser which helps efficiency but I will look to see what is around now as that was 10 years ago I made that change.
if I go electric pwr steer. I will use a serpentine belt. This allows me to push these components further forward. The other issue is the alternator. I am looking for a lighter alternator than factory but it must have the same mounting points as the McLaren electronics alternator. This will allow me to swap them in and out for track days. A higher charge rate at idle is the reason. Where at the track the high rate to drive cooling fans will be useful. It looks like the McLaren is based off the Nippon Denso alternator used on japaese cars etc. So this area in short is still requiring considerable research.
09-04-2014, 06:57 AM
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Brake Upgrade
Standard S2 Discs vs Upgrade Cup Car Discs
Close to fully machined
Same thickness as standard but bigger diameter,
We're running compound 11 on the fronts and 12 on the rear, this provides better friction than any carbon ceramic OEM setup according to PFC. I am looking to reduce the stopping distance from the old rated figures from various US car magazines of 136 feet from 60 MPH to below 100 feet. That will be judged a success. However if I can get closer to 90 feet that will really make me happy.
The hats are currently being made and are not held on with the same bolted arrangement as Brembo but a retaining ring. This system is called VS3 and there is less distortion that causes pad knock off, the discs are also superior in relation to their heat management.
Close to fully machined
Same thickness as standard but bigger diameter,
We're running compound 11 on the fronts and 12 on the rear, this provides better friction than any carbon ceramic OEM setup according to PFC. I am looking to reduce the stopping distance from the old rated figures from various US car magazines of 136 feet from 60 MPH to below 100 feet. That will be judged a success. However if I can get closer to 90 feet that will really make me happy.
The hats are currently being made and are not held on with the same bolted arrangement as Brembo but a retaining ring. This system is called VS3 and there is less distortion that causes pad knock off, the discs are also superior in relation to their heat management.
10-19-2014, 07:29 AM
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Going interstate next week, I am picking up the adapted PFC brakes. This is a major job out of the way, it has proved to be very expensive. I also have to fit the ABS and new master cylinder. The master cylinder will need adapting or I will just make a billet version and use the innards from the factory 997 turbo master cylinder. It is 25 mm in diameter which is a lot bigger than the 928 master cylinder so I can't just bore it out.
I am taking with me the Ohlins ILX dampers and we will be making the custom parts to fit these dampers.
They weigh 1.5 kgs bare and I suspect the extra pieces may take it up to 3.5 kgs each. The dampers each have a hydraulic cylinder on top of them. I have worked out a very neat way to integrate these pieces and they don't form part of the unsprung weight. The unsprung weight of these dampers is very low and while I don't have carbon fibre wheels, the reduction of unsprung weight should have some benefits.
Despite the brakes being much bigger there shouldn't be an increase in weight. However when I get everything back I will weigh them to get an exact weight difference. It may end up being just a wash but the performance difference will be massive.
One avenue I believe I will pursue is suspension measurement. If I go ahead the plan is to fit a pressure sensor into the hydraulic cylinder. I would then run the cylinder one or two mm off its stops. This means that the car will run on the hydraulic oil, as such the pressure in the cylinder will represent the force that is on the tyre. I will get an idea of what is happening with different suspension set ups and also changes in aero load over various speeds. I could also alter the rake angle to see what happens with the downforce. Obviously if I found a good setup the suspension would be set at that level and the alignment configured to suit that height. It should give real world information and take a lot of guess work out of the equation.
The other issues that have arisen is what to do with the various engines. My car was an automatic and the car converted to manual around a decade ago. You have to remove part of the body at the gear selector. Also given my car was a 2 valve engine, I never really thought the 4 valve engine belonged in that car, nor the 8 speed auto, it is a more aggressive simpler car.
This car is really suited more to the two valve engine and manual trans. I am thinking this is what I may well do. The two valve engine will never be as powerful as the 4 valve version but the car is light and we should be able to get good power from it. However I will have to weld the head and I am worried about softening it in the process. I will ring a heat treatment place this week about this issue. Maybe the only thing to do is just dunk the head in cold water after I weld it? The same method as Burt Munro employed.
I have to do some welding to change the chamber a little and weld the spring seats to raise the port roof. This is the only way to get near the goal of 350 cfm from a 2.20" valve. I am also moving the valve locations and by doing this I will hopefully achieve a 7 mm clearance to the bore. So I am hoping all this engineering trickery doesn't come back to bite me. Anybody know anything about castings etc? Two hundred degrees is about the most you want to take a head to or some permanent annealing can occur from article I have read. This can happen when they straighten heads.
The other idea I had about the two valve engine was to abandon my use of solid tappets and use hydraulic versions. This will help with maintenance, hopefully there won't be a a lot of valve or seat wear, I am using CuBe seats so they are soft compared to stellite versions etc. I need to investigate the use of my radius lifters.
The tappets only weigh 30 grams and the Ti intake valves weigh less than 70 grams, with beehive springs the whole assembly is very light. The thing is, can a small radius tappet handle a 16 mm lift? It will depend on the duration profile and base circle diameter. This should cut some friction also. I need to get some more EN40B or 722M4 steel for the cams, it has to come from the UK which is where I got the material for the 4 valve engine. It is a big job doing these custom builds!
I am taking with me the Ohlins ILX dampers and we will be making the custom parts to fit these dampers.
They weigh 1.5 kgs bare and I suspect the extra pieces may take it up to 3.5 kgs each. The dampers each have a hydraulic cylinder on top of them. I have worked out a very neat way to integrate these pieces and they don't form part of the unsprung weight. The unsprung weight of these dampers is very low and while I don't have carbon fibre wheels, the reduction of unsprung weight should have some benefits.
Despite the brakes being much bigger there shouldn't be an increase in weight. However when I get everything back I will weigh them to get an exact weight difference. It may end up being just a wash but the performance difference will be massive.
One avenue I believe I will pursue is suspension measurement. If I go ahead the plan is to fit a pressure sensor into the hydraulic cylinder. I would then run the cylinder one or two mm off its stops. This means that the car will run on the hydraulic oil, as such the pressure in the cylinder will represent the force that is on the tyre. I will get an idea of what is happening with different suspension set ups and also changes in aero load over various speeds. I could also alter the rake angle to see what happens with the downforce. Obviously if I found a good setup the suspension would be set at that level and the alignment configured to suit that height. It should give real world information and take a lot of guess work out of the equation.
The other issues that have arisen is what to do with the various engines. My car was an automatic and the car converted to manual around a decade ago. You have to remove part of the body at the gear selector. Also given my car was a 2 valve engine, I never really thought the 4 valve engine belonged in that car, nor the 8 speed auto, it is a more aggressive simpler car.
This car is really suited more to the two valve engine and manual trans. I am thinking this is what I may well do. The two valve engine will never be as powerful as the 4 valve version but the car is light and we should be able to get good power from it. However I will have to weld the head and I am worried about softening it in the process. I will ring a heat treatment place this week about this issue. Maybe the only thing to do is just dunk the head in cold water after I weld it? The same method as Burt Munro employed.
I have to do some welding to change the chamber a little and weld the spring seats to raise the port roof. This is the only way to get near the goal of 350 cfm from a 2.20" valve. I am also moving the valve locations and by doing this I will hopefully achieve a 7 mm clearance to the bore. So I am hoping all this engineering trickery doesn't come back to bite me. Anybody know anything about castings etc? Two hundred degrees is about the most you want to take a head to or some permanent annealing can occur from article I have read. This can happen when they straighten heads.
The other idea I had about the two valve engine was to abandon my use of solid tappets and use hydraulic versions. This will help with maintenance, hopefully there won't be a a lot of valve or seat wear, I am using CuBe seats so they are soft compared to stellite versions etc. I need to investigate the use of my radius lifters.
The tappets only weigh 30 grams and the Ti intake valves weigh less than 70 grams, with beehive springs the whole assembly is very light. The thing is, can a small radius tappet handle a 16 mm lift? It will depend on the duration profile and base circle diameter. This should cut some friction also. I need to get some more EN40B or 722M4 steel for the cams, it has to come from the UK which is where I got the material for the 4 valve engine. It is a big job doing these custom builds!
12-20-2014, 09:20 PM
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Small update, one of the 4 engines being built had some forward progress, This engine is 2 Valve engine with custom intake valves, they are around 52 mm or 50% of bore area, we may reduce this a little based on our recent experience. This engine is not stroked but just bored and is 104 mm, it uses the 968 rings with factory 104 mm 2 valve pistons as pictured below.
We have had to lengthen the factory rods by 2 mm and we have also grooved the big end of the rods to accept the Toyota Supra bearings with are much harder and made by King Bearings.
We are going to deck the block by less the 10 thou to clean up the surface and the piston will then be sticking out of the block by around 0.25 mm. This is optimal. We are hoping that the heads will flow around 270 cfm at peak cam lift which in this engine is 0.500". After the manifold is added I am hoping that net flow is around 250 cfm at peak lift so we think given that we can tune this engine very accurately with the OBR Euro 8 ECU that around 450 Flywheel HP is possible with excellent torque. This engine should be operational around March 2015 all going to plan.
We have had to lengthen the factory rods by 2 mm and we have also grooved the big end of the rods to accept the Toyota Supra bearings with are much harder and made by King Bearings.
We are going to deck the block by less the 10 thou to clean up the surface and the piston will then be sticking out of the block by around 0.25 mm. This is optimal. We are hoping that the heads will flow around 270 cfm at peak cam lift which in this engine is 0.500". After the manifold is added I am hoping that net flow is around 250 cfm at peak lift so we think given that we can tune this engine very accurately with the OBR Euro 8 ECU that around 450 Flywheel HP is possible with excellent torque. This engine should be operational around March 2015 all going to plan.