j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

Hi guys,
My usually solid daily and yearly driver would not start today. Chicago and minus 2 degrees. It cranked and tried to run but kept dying. I did this maybe 20 times, so my battery was fine. I had my son push it to my warm garage, and after 6 hours the car started in one second. I added Heet to the gas after this but I wonder if I have a plausible diagnosis and is this treatment would be helpful.
Thanks,
Dave

depami

Park it back outside and see if it starts in the morning

docmirror

Fuel freezes at some bizarre low temp so it's not the fuel or the lines. Most likely your idle air bypass circuit and fuel enrichment weren't enough to keep it running at that temp. There's a lot of resistance in the engine at very low temps, and it takes a lot of air and fuel to keep it running until it gets up to around 20F or higher.

Randy V

You have water in your tank/lines.

Add some tank anti-freeze and you'll be fine.

Learned this growing up in northern Ontario.

Wisconsin Joe

Are you running gas with ethanol in it, or are you running "pure" gas?

If you're running ethanol in the gas, then it probably isn't gas line freeze up. The Heet and other brands are methanol with a few other additives. The alcohol mixes with the water and lowers the freezing point.
Any ethanol mix gasoline will do that all by itself.

If you choose to run "pure" gas in it, then it's very possible that water has condensed out of the air, dropped to the bottom of the tank and froze up, blocking the lines.

GlenL

As there are almost 20000 square miles of corn planted in Illinois, I expect there's ethanol in the gas. (Yes, I googled it)

I run gas with alcohol in it as the "non-oxy" gas in Minnesota is all 91 octane and the gas with ethanol will go to 93 octane.

I think your problem is more standard running problems. Fuel injection is more tolerant of cold starting that the old carbs. Still, dirty injectors don't atomize the gas as well. I'll go with that, dirty injectors.

When and what was the last time you ran some fuel system cleaner through it? Some Seafoam may make a difference. Gotta wait for it to get warmed up a bit.

wg928

I'm curious I 've understood cold temps usually show weak batteries as a no start/run cause

Wisconsin Joe

Wisconsin is the same way. The vast majority of the stations only offer gas with "Up to 10% Ethanol."

There are a few places that offer "No Ethanol" gas. oddly enough, most are 91 octane premium, but a couple offer 87 octane too.

I know a few people that insist on running only "pure" gas. Some have valid reasons - one is driving a 1965 Jeep and the ethanol isn't good for some of the components.

If the OP is going to the trouble to find and run non-ethanol gas, then fuel line freeze up is a possibilty.

depami

Did you let it get cold again? Does it still start?

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...vils-brew.html

Wisconsin Joe

Yeah, I was afraid that argument would surface.

I don't have enough of a chemical engineering background to really voice an opinion on whether or not E-gas is a good idea or a bad idea; good for cars or bad for cars.

I do know that the Owner's manual on my 97 Blazer says that use of it voids the warranty, it's really the only available gas without going well out of my way, and it is doing fine at almost 17 years and only about 86k miles. For the "it goes bad really fast" argument, for about 7 years I drove it about 2 miles to work, left it there for a week, drove it the 2 miles home, and it then sat for a week because I was driving my Porsche. This would go on all summer. It might take 2 months or longer to go through a tank of gas. Other than the battery dying around the beginning of August from not being driven enough to properly charge it, no problems at all. Work has since moved to about 17 miles from my house, but the "drive it to work and back home every other week and that's it all summer" hasn't changed.

j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

I will try a cold start again tomorrow. I let it sit inside a heated garage overnight, charged the battery and added Heet. Not sure the conditions will be the same with the Heet in place, but I'll try. BTW battery is strong, and one year old, fuel pump relay replaced 4 years ago. Recently changed to premium gas, and I'm not 100% sure there is ethanol in the premium. It is 10% ethanol in regular and mid-grade.
Thanks for the interest.
Dave

Z

That's what the stickers on the pumps say. I've measured 20 (twenty) percent ethanol content at one station in Wisconsin though. Since ethanol is cheaper than gasoline, and you end up using more of it per mile driven too, the higher the percentage, the more profit for somebody.

Being in the Chicago area, it's almost guaranteed that the car being discussed has an ethanol blended fuel in it, so a frozen gas line is probably unlikely. After having personally seen some of what ethanol in gasoline can do, I avoid it if at all possible.

Ethanol has a lower stoichiometric ratio than gasoline. The more ethanol in the gasoline/ethanol mixture, the richer the air/fuel ratio needs to be. The O2 sensor will compensate for this, but the O2 sensor isn't being used until it warms up. On a cold start, when the O2 sensor isn't being used, the lambda ratio will be leaner than it would be with 100% gasoline. The colder it is, the richer the initial mixture needs to be to get the engine going, so the ethanol is working against you under those conditions.

From what was stated in the initial post, I'd be kind of surprised if the starting/running problem experienced is completely due to an ethanol issue though. I'd check the thermo-time switch first, followed by the cold start injector.

j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

Thanks all.
I should have said, the car started fine then died. I went through this 20 times, then just gave up. It would not rev over about 1200 rpm. That makes me think the cold start system is probably OK?
Will check it out again tomorrow when it is nice and cold again.
Dave

Wisconsin Joe

Well, if it kept on firing and then dying then it wasn't fuel line freeze up. That would give you absolutely no firing at all. Some gas is getting through.
Doc Mirror's post is probably the right direction.

j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

Thanks,
The way I "understand" gas line freeze is: that water gets into your gas either by contamination or condensation. E10 gas will keep it from freezing up to a point. More water or colder temps can exceed the ethanol's ability to prevent freezing and the ice crystals can obstruct fuel line or filter to varying degrees, causing low fuel pressure. Low fuel pressure will not sustain stable idle or running.
I think i got some bad gas, which had water in it. I could be wrong and we will see how this plays out.
I do appreciate all the ideas, especially the ones that are different from my own.
Thanks,
Dave