Early 86 5-speed won't go into any gear...
12-15-2012, 08:27 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Early 86 5-speed won't go into any gear...
Hi,
My early 86 5-speed w/49k miles won’t go into any gear. I haven’t driven for about 3 weeks due to the weather. It’s in an unheated storage garage, but I started it each week and let it fully warm up (without moving or driving it). It started and idled fine today, but between 1,100 and 2,000 rpm’s I could feel a vibration from down low in the engine, about a foot in front of the pedals/firewall. There is no change revving it with the clutch pushed in or out, and no weird noises, just the vibration. Everything is ok and vibration free at idle or above 2k rpm, just not between 1,100 = 2,000 rmp. My car has always been a little tough to get into reverse and first until it was warmed up a little, and the clutch kind of rattled when letting it out, but it always worked.
I know my motor mounts need to changed, so I’m not sure if that might be the problem. I can feel the shift linkage is still hooked up, but it feels like the clutch isn’t engaging to let me put it in any gear. I can’t see any obvious leaks or linkages being loose, so any ideas what to check? Also, I’m going to buy some motor mounts and an oil pan gasket from Roger. Are the Volvo mounts and silicone opg the best parts to get? What else should be changed when the mounts are done? I’m going to be hitting up MrMerlin to see when he’s available to check it out and get it squared away. If you see this Stan, I’d appreciate any advice from you and the other forum members on what to do and what parts to buy.
Thanks in advance for your help!
My early 86 5-speed w/49k miles won’t go into any gear. I haven’t driven for about 3 weeks due to the weather. It’s in an unheated storage garage, but I started it each week and let it fully warm up (without moving or driving it). It started and idled fine today, but between 1,100 and 2,000 rpm’s I could feel a vibration from down low in the engine, about a foot in front of the pedals/firewall. There is no change revving it with the clutch pushed in or out, and no weird noises, just the vibration. Everything is ok and vibration free at idle or above 2k rpm, just not between 1,100 = 2,000 rmp. My car has always been a little tough to get into reverse and first until it was warmed up a little, and the clutch kind of rattled when letting it out, but it always worked.
I know my motor mounts need to changed, so I’m not sure if that might be the problem. I can feel the shift linkage is still hooked up, but it feels like the clutch isn’t engaging to let me put it in any gear. I can’t see any obvious leaks or linkages being loose, so any ideas what to check? Also, I’m going to buy some motor mounts and an oil pan gasket from Roger. Are the Volvo mounts and silicone opg the best parts to get? What else should be changed when the mounts are done? I’m going to be hitting up MrMerlin to see when he’s available to check it out and get it squared away. If you see this Stan, I’d appreciate any advice from you and the other forum members on what to do and what parts to buy.
Thanks in advance for your help!
12-15-2012, 08:59 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Site Sponsor
"...it feels like the clutch isn’t engaging to let me put it in any gear."
Engaging - releasing the clutch pedal so that the clutch links the engine to the transmission.
Disengaging - pressing in the clutch pedal so that the clutch disengages the engine from the transmission.
This is a quick, but slightly dangerous test - try at your own risk! Put the transmission into fifth gear. Stand hard on the brakes. With your foot all the way down on the clutch pedal, hit the starter very, very briefly. Does the starter turn over normally, or does the car try to move, and the starter appear to stall?
If the clutch is not releasing at all, but the pedal feels completely normal, you may have a mechanical problem with the clutch. The easiest problem would be for one of the two clutch disks to be stuck to a flywheel, intermediate plate, or pressure plate surface. Was the car driven in heavy rain just before being parked?
If the clutch won't release at all, and the pedal feels normal, with normal spring pressure, you may be ready for a clutch removal and inspection.
Engaging - releasing the clutch pedal so that the clutch links the engine to the transmission.
Disengaging - pressing in the clutch pedal so that the clutch disengages the engine from the transmission.
This is a quick, but slightly dangerous test - try at your own risk! Put the transmission into fifth gear. Stand hard on the brakes. With your foot all the way down on the clutch pedal, hit the starter very, very briefly. Does the starter turn over normally, or does the car try to move, and the starter appear to stall?
If the clutch is not releasing at all, but the pedal feels completely normal, you may have a mechanical problem with the clutch. The easiest problem would be for one of the two clutch disks to be stuck to a flywheel, intermediate plate, or pressure plate surface. Was the car driven in heavy rain just before being parked?
If the clutch won't release at all, and the pedal feels normal, with normal spring pressure, you may be ready for a clutch removal and inspection.
12-15-2012, 09:13 PM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
Hi Wally,
I'll give it a try (understanding it's at my own risk). I couldn't get it slide into any gear, with the car turned off or on, clutch pedal to the floor or not using the pedal at all.
The clutch and shifter seem "normal", just like it's not engaging (disengaging?) enough to let it go into gear. I can feel the shift linkage when I row thru the gears, it's just that I can't move it that 1/2 to 3/4's of an inch to get it to slide into gear. I've had problems getting it into 1st and reverse when cold before, but it always slipped into 2 thru 5 without much effort. I'd let the temp rise, and once warmed up would pump the clutch a couple of times to get it into 1 or reverse. After a few miles and some warm up, it would shift pretty decently.
It did have a weird "hitch" in the clutch pedal for awhile. I would let the pedal out all the way, and just before taking my foot of it, the last 1/2 inch would feel like a "click" (not a sound, just a click feeling through my foot). I'm not sure if there is somehow air or a lack of fluid, but like I said, it feels normal, it just won't let me move it that little bit more to let it drop into gear.
I'll give it a try (understanding it's at my own risk). I couldn't get it slide into any gear, with the car turned off or on, clutch pedal to the floor or not using the pedal at all.
The clutch and shifter seem "normal", just like it's not engaging (disengaging?) enough to let it go into gear. I can feel the shift linkage when I row thru the gears, it's just that I can't move it that 1/2 to 3/4's of an inch to get it to slide into gear. I've had problems getting it into 1st and reverse when cold before, but it always slipped into 2 thru 5 without much effort. I'd let the temp rise, and once warmed up would pump the clutch a couple of times to get it into 1 or reverse. After a few miles and some warm up, it would shift pretty decently.
It did have a weird "hitch" in the clutch pedal for awhile. I would let the pedal out all the way, and just before taking my foot of it, the last 1/2 inch would feel like a "click" (not a sound, just a click feeling through my foot). I'm not sure if there is somehow air or a lack of fluid, but like I said, it feels normal, it just won't let me move it that little bit more to let it drop into gear.
12-15-2012, 10:20 PM
#4
Team Owner
NOTE ....starting the car and not driving it will do more damage,
than leaving it sit till you can drive the car.
From the info provided there may be transmission issues .
If the transmission wont go into any gear with the engine not running.
You should check the front/ rear couplers first before doing any more testing,
have a helper move the shifter through the gears while you watch the coupler, engine will be off
Of course its a moot point if it wont go into any gear with the engine off,
That said, if the car is in your garage and it needs to be backed out,
instead of using the 5th gear test Wally suggested instead use reverse.
and make sure your sitting in the car with the doors closed be ready to turn the key off
NOTE the issue here is that the clutch disc may be rusted to the flywheel ,
thus the clutch pedal even when pressed wont release the clutch..
The rusting issue may come from a wet floor or constant temperature changes in the storage area,
plus running the car and not driving it.
than leaving it sit till you can drive the car.
From the info provided there may be transmission issues .
If the transmission wont go into any gear with the engine not running.
You should check the front/ rear couplers first before doing any more testing,
have a helper move the shifter through the gears while you watch the coupler, engine will be off
Of course its a moot point if it wont go into any gear with the engine off,
That said, if the car is in your garage and it needs to be backed out,
instead of using the 5th gear test Wally suggested instead use reverse.
and make sure your sitting in the car with the doors closed be ready to turn the key off
NOTE the issue here is that the clutch disc may be rusted to the flywheel ,
thus the clutch pedal even when pressed wont release the clutch..
The rusting issue may come from a wet floor or constant temperature changes in the storage area,
plus running the car and not driving it.
Last edited by Mrmerlin; 12-15-2012 at 11:06 PM.
12-15-2012, 10:53 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Definitely check the couplers first. With the engine running, are you getting grinding from the transmission when you attempt to put it into gear? If not, then the clutch is disengaging correctly and your issue would be isolated to the shifter, linkage, couplers, etc.
12-15-2012, 11:25 PM
#6
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks for the advice. I'll check things out tomorrow when it's light out. I hated starting it without driving it, but since it was cold I didn't want the battery going dead.
12-15-2012, 11:56 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Site Sponsor
OK, I don't think that any of us are really sure what your problem is.
Perhaps you could let us know if any of these describe your problem.
Problem 1 - Clutch doesn't release.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal feels normal - you feel as if you are stretching a spring all the way down. The shift lever feels normal until you get very close to the gear position, and then you suddenly get increased resistance. If you force the lever thru the resistance, you get gear grinding.
Problem 2 Transmission doesn't shift.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal feels normal - you feel as if you are stretching a spring all the way down. The shift lever feels normal until you get very close to the gear position, and then you suddenly get increased resistance. If you try to force the lever thru the resistance, you simply hit a wall. There is no noise, the lever just doesn't move far enough to go into gear.
Problem 3 The shift linkage doesn't select a gear.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal feels normal - you feel as if you are stretching a spring all the way down. The shift lever feels looser than normal and you cannot feel any gear position. You suddenly get increased resistance, feeling as if you hit a steel wall with the shift lever.
Problem 4 The clutch pedal doesn't operate the clutch.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal doesn't feel normal - you feel looseness near the top, and only feel as if you are stretching a spring when the pedal is most of the way down. The shift lever feels normal until you get very close to the gear position, and then you suddenly get increased resistance.
By the way, I completely agree with Stan - running the engine occasionally is not good for the car. Buying and using a battery maintainer is actually better for the car.
The reason for doing the clutch release test in fifth is that it is much less likely that the starter can actually move the car in fifth gear than in first or reverse.
Perhaps you could let us know if any of these describe your problem.
Problem 1 - Clutch doesn't release.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal feels normal - you feel as if you are stretching a spring all the way down. The shift lever feels normal until you get very close to the gear position, and then you suddenly get increased resistance. If you force the lever thru the resistance, you get gear grinding.
Problem 2 Transmission doesn't shift.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal feels normal - you feel as if you are stretching a spring all the way down. The shift lever feels normal until you get very close to the gear position, and then you suddenly get increased resistance. If you try to force the lever thru the resistance, you simply hit a wall. There is no noise, the lever just doesn't move far enough to go into gear.
Problem 3 The shift linkage doesn't select a gear.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal feels normal - you feel as if you are stretching a spring all the way down. The shift lever feels looser than normal and you cannot feel any gear position. You suddenly get increased resistance, feeling as if you hit a steel wall with the shift lever.
Problem 4 The clutch pedal doesn't operate the clutch.
Symptom: With the engine running, you press the clutch pedal down, and try to move the shift lever into first gear. The clutch pedal doesn't feel normal - you feel looseness near the top, and only feel as if you are stretching a spring when the pedal is most of the way down. The shift lever feels normal until you get very close to the gear position, and then you suddenly get increased resistance.
By the way, I completely agree with Stan - running the engine occasionally is not good for the car. Buying and using a battery maintainer is actually better for the car.
The reason for doing the clutch release test in fifth is that it is much less likely that the starter can actually move the car in fifth gear than in first or reverse.
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12-16-2012, 12:15 AM
#8
Instructor
Thread Starter
Wally,
Your post of problem #2 is just about dead on (98%) to the symptoms my car has. The only other one might be problem #4, but that is 50/50 at best.
Your post of problem #2 is just about dead on (98%) to the symptoms my car has. The only other one might be problem #4, but that is 50/50 at best.
12-16-2012, 12:16 AM
#9
Team Owner
To be clear..... will the shifter go into any gear with the engine not running?
as far as running the car without driving it goes,
consider the catalytic converter its getting very hot and even with the heat shields it will be heating the unbderbody and the shutz coating,
Also if you might have a fouled plug the unburned fuel will cause the cats to glow red.
if there is oil on the shutz coating it can flashfire thus the car can burn from a cat fire,
this has happened before, moreso on the auto trans cars as they have additional fluids leaking onto the top of the heat shields.
For your battery simply disconnect the battery at its ground connection point,
put it on a tender every 3 weeks.
The vibrations your feeling are the collapsed motor mounts, possibly the same for the trans mounts
as far as running the car without driving it goes,
consider the catalytic converter its getting very hot and even with the heat shields it will be heating the unbderbody and the shutz coating,
Also if you might have a fouled plug the unburned fuel will cause the cats to glow red.
if there is oil on the shutz coating it can flashfire thus the car can burn from a cat fire,
this has happened before, moreso on the auto trans cars as they have additional fluids leaking onto the top of the heat shields.
For your battery simply disconnect the battery at its ground connection point,
put it on a tender every 3 weeks.
The vibrations your feeling are the collapsed motor mounts, possibly the same for the trans mounts
12-16-2012, 12:19 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
If you were able to get the car into gear with the engine shut off and you were experiencing something along the lines of symptom #4, Wally's test is a great idea for determining if the clutch is engaging. He is also correct that fifth gear is preferable for safety. Considering that you are in a position where you cannot select a gear whether the engine running or not, you may need to enlist the help of a friend and do the following..
Put the front of the car on jack stands (I use the jack points for my floor jacks & the lower control arm supports for my stands)
Have a helper depress the clutch & hold it to the floor. Take a pry bar and pry the clutch fork as far back as it will go. Hold what you have and have the helper pump the clutch pedal several times and, again, hold it to the floor. Remove the pry bar. The helper may now release the clutch pedal.
Go to the foot pedals & loosen the rod that connects the clutch pedal to the master cylinder via the 13mm nut.
Thread the rod into the block only to allow a small amount of freeplay & then secure the nut.
See if this allows you to at least select gears without the engine running & report back.
12-16-2012, 12:35 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
It should also be said that doing as I have outlined provides an excellent opportunity to check the condition of the rear coupler, condition of the blue hose (swelling?), leaks from the slave cylinder, etc. While your tools are handy, not much more work is required to check the front coupler and intermediate plate. For now, though, just use the tips from the above posts and continue updating your results & findings.
12-16-2012, 02:30 PM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks again everyone. I'm going to the storage area now and will double check the ability to get it into gear with the engine off. I'll try a few things and let you know what I find. I think Stan might be onto part of the problem; I did wash the car last time I drove it. I didn't wash it and then put it right away, I did drive it around for a couple of more hours and another 20 miles or so. And Wally, thanks for articulating possible symptoms, you did a much better job explaining it than I could of.
12-16-2012, 04:44 PM
#13
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks Wally, Stan and Kiln!
It lives. I went this morning to try again, and it would shift into gear with the motor turned off. I slid it into reverse (prepared for it to move) and depressed the clutch to the floor and turned the key to on so to start the engine. It jumped (more like rocked) about an inch. I then took it out of gear with the engine off, rowed thru the gears and restarted it. It shifts fine now and I’m driving it around. So thanks again for the help.
I’ll look in the forums for info on motor mounts, opg, and the transmission mount swap and get info on the proper way to store a 928 for the winter. If any of you 928 Jedi Knights are bored and want to offer more advice to this Padawan, please send me a PM or you can e-mail me at steveclark3007 at yahoo dot com
Thanks again!
It lives. I went this morning to try again, and it would shift into gear with the motor turned off. I slid it into reverse (prepared for it to move) and depressed the clutch to the floor and turned the key to on so to start the engine. It jumped (more like rocked) about an inch. I then took it out of gear with the engine off, rowed thru the gears and restarted it. It shifts fine now and I’m driving it around. So thanks again for the help.
I’ll look in the forums for info on motor mounts, opg, and the transmission mount swap and get info on the proper way to store a 928 for the winter. If any of you 928 Jedi Knights are bored and want to offer more advice to this Padawan, please send me a PM or you can e-mail me at steveclark3007 at yahoo dot com
Thanks again!
12-16-2012, 05:19 PM
#15
Instructor
Thread Starter
Kiln,
Will do, I'll check the hydraulics. I've only had it since July, so far I've done the tb/wp and hoses, tune up, oil change, etc... So I have more planned to get it running/driving as good as it can. It could have been a little rust binding it up, since I washed it last time I drove it (wetness in the clutch area, as suggested by Stan).
Last time I stored a car was in 1986 when I was leaving to be stationed in Okinawa. I had an 84 Toyota Celica Supra (that was before they dropped the "Celica" from the name). I put it on stands, removed the wheels and battery and covered it up. A year later, I put in fresh gas, air in the tires, a new battery, changed the oil and put a squirt of some ether in the air cleaner housing and it started right up. That was a bulletproof car! I bought a Skyline on Okinawa, then upgraded to Toyota Soarer. I wish I had brought that car home to the States with me. My buddy had a Nissan Leopard, and that was a cool (non-US) car, too. Fast for the time, now they'd be kind of mild, but...
Will do, I'll check the hydraulics. I've only had it since July, so far I've done the tb/wp and hoses, tune up, oil change, etc... So I have more planned to get it running/driving as good as it can. It could have been a little rust binding it up, since I washed it last time I drove it (wetness in the clutch area, as suggested by Stan).
Last time I stored a car was in 1986 when I was leaving to be stationed in Okinawa. I had an 84 Toyota Celica Supra (that was before they dropped the "Celica" from the name). I put it on stands, removed the wheels and battery and covered it up. A year later, I put in fresh gas, air in the tires, a new battery, changed the oil and put a squirt of some ether in the air cleaner housing and it started right up. That was a bulletproof car! I bought a Skyline on Okinawa, then upgraded to Toyota Soarer. I wish I had brought that car home to the States with me. My buddy had a Nissan Leopard, and that was a cool (non-US) car, too. Fast for the time, now they'd be kind of mild, but...