Purists who hate the chevy conversion.... this car is legit.
11-08-2012, 10:13 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The '80 you have has the weakest 928 brakes of any model year. This '85 5-speed in California has better brakes - although still not as good as the Brembo 4-piston late 86-91 brakes, or the 92-95 brakes. Given you can get a repaint pretty cheaply, and will be replacing the engine, this car would be a decent starting point:
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/3346435481.html
The cheapest 500hp car would be an S4 with a supercharger kit bolted on. As soon as you get into swapping engines, ECU's, etc., it gets tricky. Dont take Renegade's words for it - they're greedily eyeing your wallet. Not to say their kit doesn't work - but it does leave a lot of questions unanswered.
Some questions for you.
What PS pump, Alternator and AC compressor would you use, and what hoses/fittings/cables to attach to them? How will you integrate the speedo, cooling fans, and AC wiring with the new ECU? What hubs/spindles and brakes will you use? (the stock brakes on your current 928 are not good enough for 300hp in the factory's opinion - they used stronger ones on the '80 Euro 928S which had 300hp). Sorting out those questions is, at an experienced guess, $2k minimum.
Note we're not trying to say you're mad for wanting to do this, or stop you from doing it. We just don't want to see another person jump in with enthusiasm only to wind up hurting when it isn't all as easy as optimism suggested. You wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last, to dive into the 928 as its a great looking car, with no real plans or planning, and wind up selling a partial project for pennies on the dollar years down the track. Remember we're all car guys here - we're not "modification police" and we just hate to see other car guys get burned.
There are some excellent conversions driving around, and the results can be good (there's even a twin-turbo 2JZ toyota motor in one locally), just be aware that its not as simple as Renegade make out.
Seriously - take a step back, make a spreadsheet and itemize/estimate all the things you think would need to be sorted out in the project. People here will be happy to discuss options, costs and process with you - this forum is full of a lot of experienced technical help.
In the short term, find a local 928 owner with a well sorted car and go for a ride in it with them. You might find that an almost stock 928 (exhaust mods and possible ECU chip) with better brakes is enough that you don't need to spend thousands of dollars for a small further gain. For the cost of an X-pipe, a fuel pressure regulator and some ECU chips, an 85/86 early 32V can put down 300hp at the wheels. Compared to the cost of a complete engine swap for a 400-crank HP engine, its a no-brainer.
As rgs says in the quote above - get your current one running and sell it to replace it with a better starting point. You should be able to upgrade the whole car (and increase your options) for less money than the cost of just upgrading the brakes will likely end up on your current one.
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/3346435481.html
The cheapest 500hp car would be an S4 with a supercharger kit bolted on. As soon as you get into swapping engines, ECU's, etc., it gets tricky. Dont take Renegade's words for it - they're greedily eyeing your wallet. Not to say their kit doesn't work - but it does leave a lot of questions unanswered.
Some questions for you.
What PS pump, Alternator and AC compressor would you use, and what hoses/fittings/cables to attach to them? How will you integrate the speedo, cooling fans, and AC wiring with the new ECU? What hubs/spindles and brakes will you use? (the stock brakes on your current 928 are not good enough for 300hp in the factory's opinion - they used stronger ones on the '80 Euro 928S which had 300hp). Sorting out those questions is, at an experienced guess, $2k minimum.
Note we're not trying to say you're mad for wanting to do this, or stop you from doing it. We just don't want to see another person jump in with enthusiasm only to wind up hurting when it isn't all as easy as optimism suggested. You wouldn't be the first, and won't be the last, to dive into the 928 as its a great looking car, with no real plans or planning, and wind up selling a partial project for pennies on the dollar years down the track. Remember we're all car guys here - we're not "modification police" and we just hate to see other car guys get burned.
There are some excellent conversions driving around, and the results can be good (there's even a twin-turbo 2JZ toyota motor in one locally), just be aware that its not as simple as Renegade make out.
Seriously - take a step back, make a spreadsheet and itemize/estimate all the things you think would need to be sorted out in the project. People here will be happy to discuss options, costs and process with you - this forum is full of a lot of experienced technical help.
In the short term, find a local 928 owner with a well sorted car and go for a ride in it with them. You might find that an almost stock 928 (exhaust mods and possible ECU chip) with better brakes is enough that you don't need to spend thousands of dollars for a small further gain. For the cost of an X-pipe, a fuel pressure regulator and some ECU chips, an 85/86 early 32V can put down 300hp at the wheels. Compared to the cost of a complete engine swap for a 400-crank HP engine, its a no-brainer.
As rgs says in the quote above - get your current one running and sell it to replace it with a better starting point. You should be able to upgrade the whole car (and increase your options) for less money than the cost of just upgrading the brakes will likely end up on your current one.
The car is coming along nicely. Things are getting sorted out. I am figuring out where wires go, etc. The engine and transmission are running nicely. Most importantly, it is keeping me busy and happy. I like projects. I am ina position where I could have just dropped the cash for a fully finished 928. I didnt want to do that.
As for power, since I own a mustang that runs solid 10's, I am not looking for a drag car, or a track car. I just want enough power to put a smile on my face when I hit the gas or come out of the apex of a turn.
11-08-2012, 10:44 AM
#62
Good to hear the car is coming along. Pics would be great. I still don't know what you have against Supercharging if all you want is too put a smile on your face. Trust me it works. 
You would be done in a weekend and have a car that gets better gas miliage and will be worth more in the long run. Modest boost is very reliable in a 928. At least it is in the later cars but maybe there is something I don't know about the early engines. If you do go with a conversion I really tihnk a LSx engine is the only way to go. A good hybrid is not a bad thing if done right, but if you are going to do it why not go with something modern?
You would be done in a weekend and have a car that gets better gas miliage and will be worth more in the long run. Modest boost is very reliable in a 928. At least it is in the later cars but maybe there is something I don't know about the early engines. If you do go with a conversion I really tihnk a LSx engine is the only way to go. A good hybrid is not a bad thing if done right, but if you are going to do it why not go with something modern?
11-09-2012, 02:23 AM
#63
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Just my 2 cents worth here.
Back in April, I actually went to Renegade Hybrids in Vegas and spent an hour or two talking with Scott. I saw their operation and we actually went for a spin in one of their conversions. It was one of the most scary fast cars I've ever been in and I've been in a few (my boss owns a mega-bucks Lambo). Overall the place looked good and I got the impression that Scott gives a darn too. I'm seriously considering an LS conversion for my 79 when I quit working overseas.
It all depends on what you like about the car and what you want to do. The styling and creature comforts of a 928 are unique. It can also be a very light car. It you have a really good running late model S4, I kind of agree with folks not to modify it. It will however eventually break, particularly if you track day or autocross it, and then it will break you in parts. Personally I like my car but not to the point of bankruptcy. There are great folks doing wonderful things to keep 928s alive, but the limited production numbers make parts expensive, there's no way out of it; except for the occasional crossover part where you can find something from a higher production model and use it on a 928.
Doing the LS motor conversion eliminates a bit of the bankruptcy risk. I'm looking at the conversion to be able to go run at things like SuperChevy autocrosses and other events. I think it will be a ton of fun. Freak all the folks out with LS power and German handling.
I say go for it, in the end its your hard earned money and your car. It isn't a one-of-a-kind Renoir or Michelangelo your modifying. Have fun and keep posting.
Back in April, I actually went to Renegade Hybrids in Vegas and spent an hour or two talking with Scott. I saw their operation and we actually went for a spin in one of their conversions. It was one of the most scary fast cars I've ever been in and I've been in a few (my boss owns a mega-bucks Lambo). Overall the place looked good and I got the impression that Scott gives a darn too. I'm seriously considering an LS conversion for my 79 when I quit working overseas.
It all depends on what you like about the car and what you want to do. The styling and creature comforts of a 928 are unique. It can also be a very light car. It you have a really good running late model S4, I kind of agree with folks not to modify it. It will however eventually break, particularly if you track day or autocross it, and then it will break you in parts. Personally I like my car but not to the point of bankruptcy. There are great folks doing wonderful things to keep 928s alive, but the limited production numbers make parts expensive, there's no way out of it; except for the occasional crossover part where you can find something from a higher production model and use it on a 928.
Doing the LS motor conversion eliminates a bit of the bankruptcy risk. I'm looking at the conversion to be able to go run at things like SuperChevy autocrosses and other events. I think it will be a ton of fun. Freak all the folks out with LS power and German handling.
I say go for it, in the end its your hard earned money and your car. It isn't a one-of-a-kind Renoir or Michelangelo your modifying. Have fun and keep posting.
11-09-2012, 03:40 AM
#64
Nordschleife Master
The chevy swap gets you a more powerful motor at a cheaper price than most ways of upping the power with a stock motor, but it in no way reduces ownership costs over a stock engined 928. In general it creates hybrid Chevy/Porsche systems out of the less expensive parts of a 928.
Far from eliminating risk, you generally end up with a mismash of drives but not well long term projects. You might be able to count on one hand the number of people out of the hundreds that have done Chevy swaps into Porsches that end up keeping them, if they finish them, or ever turning them into reliable daily drivers.
Far from eliminating risk, you generally end up with a mismash of drives but not well long term projects. You might be able to count on one hand the number of people out of the hundreds that have done Chevy swaps into Porsches that end up keeping them, if they finish them, or ever turning them into reliable daily drivers.
11-09-2012, 08:28 AM
#65
Three Wheelin'
This debate will never end, you have the camp that says 350 swaps have been done to every vehicle with wheels (and a few that don't) and that is indeed true, but i say it still takes skill. I've always thought that restoring a car going the OEM concours route doesn't take alot of skill, just alot of money, doing a non-OEM motor swap to me takes actual skill. Just my point of view.
11-10-2012, 11:04 PM
#66
Here's anther renegade that never was completed.... cheap...maybe someone should grab it and put it back to stock? LOL..
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/3400540060.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/3400540060.html
11-29-2012, 02:23 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Purists who hate the chevy conversion.... this car is legit.
this chevy conversion is s monster and cost no where near what it costs to make that kind of performance with a German motor.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3314405/1979-porsche-928/
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3314405/1979-porsche-928/
11-29-2012, 02:49 PM
#69
Three Wheelin'
Your small cap dig at "purists" misses the point.
It's not about purity, it's about cheapness and laziness.
When I walk across a car show lot towards a rare and unique car and get there to find a chevy motor, it's disappointing. Not because it didn't follow a rule book of properness but because there was no effort and creativity present. It was simply done to be cheap and easy.
This age of cheap and easy is it's own kind of purism. As though everyone is supposed to be so impressed that you didn't have to spend much and or exert effort.
Whatever the stupid chevy conversion is in the link I don't care to click on is, it would actually be more "legit" in a Camaro or Vette. The idea of putting it in a car that already has a V8 with superior potetntial is silly and based on laziness and cheapness or maybe lack of skill and confidence. The whole product is based on a compromise of cheapness, like building a house on a dump because the land was cheap.
Now if someone stuffs a tank engine or V16 into a 928, that would be interesating and admireable
It's not about purity, it's about cheapness and laziness.
When I walk across a car show lot towards a rare and unique car and get there to find a chevy motor, it's disappointing. Not because it didn't follow a rule book of properness but because there was no effort and creativity present. It was simply done to be cheap and easy.
This age of cheap and easy is it's own kind of purism. As though everyone is supposed to be so impressed that you didn't have to spend much and or exert effort.
Whatever the stupid chevy conversion is in the link I don't care to click on is, it would actually be more "legit" in a Camaro or Vette. The idea of putting it in a car that already has a V8 with superior potetntial is silly and based on laziness and cheapness or maybe lack of skill and confidence. The whole product is based on a compromise of cheapness, like building a house on a dump because the land was cheap.
Now if someone stuffs a tank engine or V16 into a 928, that would be interesating and admireable
11-29-2012, 03:01 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
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It shows it weighing 2800 lbs in one area and 2900 in another.
Usually in that range of ET every 100 lbs is worth about .1 of second in 1/4 mile.
11.3 at 2800 to 2900lbs would be more like a normal 3400lb car
running around a 11.8 to 11.9 area.
Could of just put a Stage 3 supercharger on the 928 as some are
running 11's already.Would of taken a day instead of all that time
to convert.
Usually in that range of ET every 100 lbs is worth about .1 of second in 1/4 mile.
11.3 at 2800 to 2900lbs would be more like a normal 3400lb car
running around a 11.8 to 11.9 area.
Could of just put a Stage 3 supercharger on the 928 as some are
running 11's already.Would of taken a day instead of all that time
to convert.
11-29-2012, 03:01 PM
#73
Drifting
The link is for a streetable track car. I have no issue with this as long as they don't ruin a nice 928 in the process. Do it with something that can't be brought back original.
11-29-2012, 03:11 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Ledee: It's not a question of "hate", for me. It is simply disinterest.
You want a Chevy, go buy a Chevy.
Edit: Never mind, Mike said it a lot better than I ever could.
You want a Chevy, go buy a Chevy.
Edit: Never mind, Mike said it a lot better than I ever could.
Last edited by jcorenman; 11-29-2012 at 03:11 PM. Reason: never mind
11-29-2012, 03:32 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by jcorenman
It's not a question of "hate", for me. It is simply disinterest.
The 928 engine isn't really all that horrible and is quite reliable when built right. Proof of that is in all the folks here driving them daily with 150k+ miles, racing them, etc.
Performance, look at all the guys with blowers maintaining rock solid reliability.
I just don't see the point of the Chevy engine other than to say "look what I did". Don't hate it, just don't understand.