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Old 11-08-2010, 09:18 PM   #271
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nothing i looked at it and ur rite on track
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Old 11-08-2010, 09:29 PM   #272
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Whew! Dodged that bullet! I hope!

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Old 11-08-2010, 10:47 PM   #273
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Holy tedium, batman!
Jerry,
Were you not in the 90th percentile design (and mfg.) well over a month ago?I also understand you don't take well to these recommendations, which may be why you didn't respond to my last one. I'm okay with that. I'm just trying to help.
Hi Jim: There is a lot of your post that I am giving a lot of consideration to, but I didn't want to repeat it all. As to the 90th percentile I suppose it is a lot like the homebuilt airplane that the guy is selling that is 90 percent complete. I wonder how much one might have to do to complete it. Or the 928 that is 90 percent restored. I built a home for myself and my family a few years ago and when I had the dirt work, the concrete, the framing done and it was dried in, I think I felt like I was, maybe not 90 percent but well over half way there. Then it took me a little less than five years of evenings and weekends to finish it.

Reccommendations? I wonder what was said about my not taking well to yours, or, I suppose, others of a similar nature? Actually I have given a lot of thought to what you have to say and I did before when you suggested I was in the weeds. I might have been in the weeds, and may still be, is some sense, but I guess I view it all as a necessary part of the development process. I didn't respond before because I am really at a loss as to just what to say or how to explain myself. On one hand you might just be right, then and now, but I can't exactly figure out how to do what I think you are suggesting. That's why I didn't come back before and why I am not doing a very good job doing so now.

For me, this kind of project has less of a tendency to allow staying the course and rather tends to branch out in smaller directions as it gets past the major components. It is really kind of an organic process both in the sense of going in unexpected directions at times and then more like a tree where it starts as a sort of trunk and then begins to develop several smaller branches each of which seems to take its own seperate development. Then, one branch cannot be developed until another is first and so on. It may seem like I am off course to many viewers, and that I am in the weeds , but I simply have to view it as staying in the same tree. I have been out of the tree a little, and posted about some of it, and some of it has nothing to do with 928's. Nevertheless, it is still the same tree that I hope to have leaf out for the benefit of myself and any others who might be interested.

On the other hand, I am proceeding a little in the direction you are perhaps suggesting, but without making any hay about it because it is really going to be part of the final development, and that is to take in one lister's console to try to do this conversion in the custom manner I previously suggested. I am doing that without having even envisioned the final part of the tree trunk which is the connector for the air vent that is going to get moved from the console to the upper insert and will be leaving a gap that needs to be filled in some way. I can't tell which way until I have a console out of one of my cars and the console trimmed out for this conversion, and I am not quite ready for that. Close, but not quite. I need some way to actually see this darn gap before I seem to be able to envision it. Even if I could see it in my mind's eye, I will need to figure some way to mock it up to measure it for the piece to be designed.

In any case the thing that disturbs me the most about what you have posted is not your suggestions at all, but rather your understanding that I am not receptive to other ideas. I think that is just a serious character flaw which seems to come across to others, including my wife, I think, but one I simply have to live with. I don't mean that I am not receptive, it is just that I guess I appear that way to others.

In short, Jim, the ONLY reason I haven't responded to your posts before now is that I have not been able to figure out for myself that you are correct. I'm going to keep trying though.

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:03 PM   #274
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Hi Jerry, if you can do so, please make available some basic plastic filler pieces that would fit a console, replacing the typically broken, NLA pieces. Thanks!
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Old 11-08-2010, 11:20 PM   #275
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Jerry your work is second to none! i just stumble upon this thread and as i was reading and seeing the development of this mod I was soooo excited and I to wanted to know when I could purchase this product from you. I must be honest and say the prices of this mod has down-turned my excitement :^(. If I'm correct, its, lets say $450 for panels, $125 for indicator, and $250 for u to do the conversion. I will forgo the $250 for most of use will be handy enough to mod it ourselves, so that leaves us with $575 + shipping. Now i may be wrong ( and i am broke like a lot of Americans rite now ;^) ) but it sounds a little steep to me and will definitely cut down on ur volume. The hard work is done now isnt it ( mold making ) and im sure u can mass produce the molds fairly cheaply. I would think lowering the price to more like $300 or so and moving quantity may be a better business plan. All it will take is someone saying that that cost is out of their range and for them to just make a fiberglass mold using cardboard as thier template for the center console and selling them for $100 and that wouldn't be too hard to do. Thats just a thought but i love the work ur doing thnks :^)
What I think you are talking about is basic price theory. I have two degrees in Economics and I even taught Macro and Micro (Price Theory) Economics as a teaching assistant when I was in graduate school. What you are describing is a basic demand curve. The lower the price the more I will sell and the higher the price the fewer I will sell. However that curve by itself does not really tell much in any given situation. What you need is to superimpose over it the applicable supply curve. Hence the old phrase "supply and demand." In think in this case the supply cirve is much more difficult to create because there are more variables in creating it than one might expect.

When you superimpose the supply and demand curves over each other, their intersection is known as the equilibrium point--the point where the amount wanting to be supplied at a given price is the same as the amount demanded also at that same price. In our FLUSH Console conversion subject it is going to be difficult to find our equilibrium point. I think. You are right that if I were to lower my price expectation I could perhaps sell a larger quantity. However, quantity, whatever it turns out to be, is going to be kind of fixed. By that I mean I do not have an unlimited capability to produce the components for this or any other product I create. It takes me just as much work to make one of these as it will take to make the next, and that is taking into account that as I work up the development I am making it as repeatable as I can and am actually making several of many of the items in anticipation of some sales without the need to do the set-up for each individual item.

Rather than try to set the price at some hoped for equilibrium, I have had to set it at a level that makes it feel like it is going to be worth my time to make as many as might be wanted at that price. That is, in a way, touching on another economic concept which is known as "opportunity cost." That is what am I giving up in order to do this? When I add up the expected amount of time it is likely to take me to do one of these conversion kits or custom jobs, and set a price on my time, that is how I seem to have come up with at least the very loose projection of costs that I previously published.

In other words, I am not interested in maximizing production with my spare time in order to make 20 or 25 bucks an hour when I might do half as much at 50 bucks and have half the time left over to do something else.

Interestingly, getting back to the supply and demand curves, I seem to recall that somewhere to the right of equilibrium was the point of maximum profit. That would be where you are selling fewer than you are willing to at that higher price, but the profit from what is being sold at the lower demand is higher than at equilibrium.

I appreciate your input on this project and it is fun to exchange ideas with you. I hope your economic situation improves so that we can figure out some way that you can be involved with one of these conversions. Maybe at some point we can make you one of the "Test Mules" that Jim is trying to talk me into.

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:27 PM   #276
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Hi Jerry, if you can do so, please make available some basic plastic filler pieces that would fit a console, replacing the typically broken, NLA pieces. Thanks!
Hi Chris. Now, there is a post that I think makes a complete circle, at least for me. If you are talking about the lower trim piece that goes around the shifter in just about all of the cars, the one with the clock panel and such, I have that piece almost complete ready to form in the original forming machine that i developed the HOW TO thread I made about it. I never actually made any of them because I diverted the direction to this flush console project, but I have a pretty nice form that with a little more work can be put into service making those trim pieces as suitable replacements. Is that what you had in mind?

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Old 11-08-2010, 11:35 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by S4-on-your-back-door View Post
Jerry your work is second to none! i just stumble upon this thread and as i was reading and seeing the development of this mod I was soooo excited and I to wanted to know when I could purchase this product from you. I must be honest and say the prices of this mod has down-turned my excitement :^(. If I'm correct, its, lets say $450 for panels, $125 for indicator, and $250 for u to do the conversion. I will forgo the $250 for most of use will be handy enough to mod it ourselves, so that leaves us with $575 + shipping. Now i may be wrong ( and i am broke like a lot of Americans rite now ;^)

Well, the 928 market isnt for broke Americans. I think that speaks for itself. That's -not- Jerry's problem to fix, nor resolve. Go ask Porsche to cut you a break on a new 911...cuz yer a broke American. You might get a free coffee and a smile, followed by "come back later...".



Jerry's not out to kill everyone for the highest $ he can make and count us all as suckers..but..this wont be a mass-production kinda thing here im gathering. He'll have a ton of personal effort into each and every kit sold well after the initial development is done..and then after the 2 or 3 minor revs once you start to see idiosyncrasies in other peoples cars for some reason or another.


If its not paying him enough to make it feel fun enough to do given that it will take his personal time to do so..he wouldnt do it.

Jerry's time is the supply side of this IMHO, not of the kit itself.
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Old 11-08-2010, 11:52 PM   #278
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Yes, thanks Jerry, I think there is a parallel market for the parts to repair the broken plastic consoles.

The manuals seem to take more of a beating than the automatics.

On three manual cars at my house, these parts are in bad shape:
The plate around the shifter;
the base of the console (actually part of the main console) in which it fits;
an insert to replace some or all of the panels hosing ashtray, clock and stereo head;
and thin surround trim all seem to break.

Re-popping any of these parts would be helpful.

Creating, as you may have already, inserts that take the place of some of them would be acceptable too.


(Sourcing the parts used is possible but for a series of reasons I'd rather have new patch parts. Nicole has metal patches for the console mounting to the tunnel, and even for the reinforcement of door pulls, for instance. These plastic parts would help many, many cars that simply aren't in the relevant set of potential buyers for the conversion kit. )
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:58 PM   #279
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For Jimmy, here is a picture of the center console glove box that I developed some time ago that I think will enhance the flush console conversion I am getting close to finishing. This box is about inch and a half deeper than the original and the lid is hinged in the back. It is also much stronger than the original which is important because the main way folks get into and 928 requires much of thier weight to be put right on the lid. I think it will be useful for the accessories that one might want to go with the NAV,etc. unit such as IPOD and maybe cell phone and I don't know whatever else.

This one is covered in gray, but any to go with the flush conversion would be the same leather, mostly black as I have suggested before.

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Old 11-10-2010, 09:37 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Jerry Feather View Post
For Jimmy, here is a picture of the center console glove box that I developed some time ago that I think will enhance the flush console conversion I am getting close to finishing. This box is about inch and a half deeper than the original and the lid is hinged in the back. It is also much stronger than the original which is important because the main way folks get into and 928 requires much of thier weight to be put right on the lid. I think it will be useful for the accessories that one might want to go with the NAV,etc. unit such as IPOD and maybe cell phone and I don't know whatever else.

This one is covered in gray, but any to go with the flush conversion would be the same leather, mostly black as I have suggested before.

Jerry Feather
Jerry, is there a thread about this piece with pricing, etc.?

Separately, would the lighting on the automatic trans benefit from an inset lens of some sort, above the LED's? I realize this might require some sort of re-tooling. I apologize if it is impractical. However, sealing the lights with some sort of lens seems like it would solve a lot of the spilled coke issues and not throw out the baby with the bathwater in terms of your lighting pieces. I envision some sort of lighting module that plugs in to the inset which would use your lights in some sort of modular plastic housing. Just a thought.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:31 PM   #281
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Hi Michael. No, I have not started a thread about this glove box item because I wasn't a sponsor when I developed it and after I became a sponsor I have been busy with other of these projects.

However, I had formed about 8 or 10 sets of the plastic pieces, four of them each, for these boxes and I expect it will take me about a half day to finish one of them. I had planned to price them at $350 each, and may still later. Right now I will offer you one of these for $300 in Black leather of my availability and I expect to offer the first of these that are already formed as an addition to the flush conversion at $250 with the conversion. If you are interested in one send me a PM and we can discuss the availability.

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Old 11-10-2010, 10:49 PM   #282
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Hi Michael. I am back in my personal regular member self here. As to the ideas you have for the indicator lites I am having some difficulty envisioning what it is you are suggesting. When I notice that your are using some of the same kinds of words that I have assigned to parts of this project, such as module and lens, I kind of think that I am already doing just what your suggestion sounds like.

In my case I am building a little lite/switch module that will fit under the lower trim piece on the left. The trim piece will have 6 half inch holes in it with the leather covering being cut and pulled down through the holes. The lenses in the module will be fit snuggly into the 6 holes from underneath the trim piece. This will leave the tiny crevice between the lenses and the leather. That is where the coke will be difficult to clean out completely. The LED's will be fit into the lenses , also from below, and will not be in contact with the coke or anything since they will be glued into the tiny hole in the lens.

If all of these lites/lenses are fit into some other kind of display fixture, if that is what you are suggesting, there is always going to be a gap or seam or joint between that and the leather. That gap is always going to be a place for stuff to accumulate, just like the crap that accumulates under the stainless steel trim ring around the kitchen sink. When you take that up there is always a mess under there. Here the lite module will be somewhat easier to take apart to clean, if needed or wanted.

There is also going to be a similar and more troublesome joint between the lower trim piece and the shifter boot and boot base.

I think the design is going to be pleasing and functional and efficient the way it is going, but I appreciate your input and look foreward to any further thoughts you might have on this effort.

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Old 11-10-2010, 11:13 PM   #283
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Hi Michael. No, I have not started a thread about this glove box item because I wasn't a sponsor when I developed it and after I became a sponsor I have been busy with other of these projects.

However, I had formed about 8 or 10 sets of the plastic pieces, four of them each, for these boxes and I expect it will take me about a half day to finish one of them. I had planned to price them at $350 each, and may still later. Right now I will offer you one of these for $300 in Black leather of my availability and I expect to offer the first of these that are already formed as an addition to the flush conversion at $250 with the conversion. If you are interested in one send me a PM and we can discuss the availability.

Jerry Feather
Thanks Jerry. That looks like a very worthwhile item. I will PM you when I am ready to buy one.

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Hi Michael. I am back in my personal regular member self here. As to the ideas you have for the indicator lites I am having some difficulty envisioning what it is you are suggesting. When I notice that your are using some of the same kinds of words that I have assigned to parts of this project, such as module and lens, I kind of think that I am already doing just what your suggestion sounds like.

In my case I am building a little lite/switch module that will fit under the lower trim piece on the left. The trim piece will have 6 half inch holes in it with the leather covering being cut and pulled down through the holes. The lenses in the module will be fit snuggly into the 6 holes from underneath the trim piece. This will leave the tiny crevice between the lenses and the leather. That is where the coke will be difficult to clean out completely. The LED's will be fit into the lenses , also from below, and will not be in contact with the coke or anything since they will be glued into the tiny hole in the lens.

If all of these lites/lenses are fit into some other kind of display fixture, if that is what you are suggesting, there is always going to be a gap or seam or joint between that and the leather. That gap is always going to be a place for stuff to accumulate, just like the crap that accumulates under the stainless steel trim ring around the kitchen sink. When you take that up there is always a mess under there. Here the lite module will be somewhat easier to take apart to clean, if needed or wanted.

There is also going to be a similar and more troublesome joint between the lower trim piece and the shifter boot and boot base.

I think the design is going to be pleasing and functional and efficient the way it is going, but I appreciate your input and look foreward to any further thoughts you might have on this effort.

Jerry Feather
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I guess I wasn't very clear. If I can come up with a way to be more clear, I will post. Otherwise, I will STFU.
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Old 11-11-2010, 04:12 AM   #284
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I'm slowly getting the parts together for this install when Jerry is ready with the final product. I'm going to put in the Hans/ Paul switchs, Pioneer Nav unit and do the speakers etc at the same time.jerry, are still looking at end December?
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Old 11-11-2010, 10:45 AM   #285
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I'm slowly getting the parts together for this install when Jerry is ready with the final product. I'm going to put in the Hans/ Paul switchs, Pioneer Nav unit and do the speakers etc at the same time.jerry, are still looking at end December?
Glad to see you are still with me on this. I was afraid my former idea about doing the install only here on a custom basis was going to tend to delete you. I think I am going to be ready with at least a preliminary kit to ship sooner than the end of Dec.

I think what you and I need to do is start a thread by PM so we can work out some of your details and I will start getting stuff ready for your kit that is already developed. What Pioneer unit are you going to install?

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