Dash Electrical Problems - Ignition Replacement, Pod Guages & LED's; PARTIALLY SOLVED
04-23-2010, 10:24 AM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Boston
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dash Electrical Problems - Ignition Replacement, Pod Guages & LED's; PARTIALLY SOLVED
Update: The no-start was caused by PO installed fuel pump cut-off switch, car ran fine once this was discovered and rewired/restored power to fuel pump. Had inadvertently switched power off when refurbishing dash. Got Speedo working also. Now need to fix dash lighting still, work in progress. See this thread for more on the fuel pump and speedo problems I just fixed: https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ml#post7813388
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty discouraged about this right now... And I need some help trouble shooting what is wrong if possible. I just spent a bunch of time and money on this project and now feel farther behind than when I started...
Decided to post these issues in a new thread because the problems grew bigger than the scope and title of my other LED project thread, which only folks looking at LED dash projects would likely see.
I took my pod apart in order to fix the following things:
1) Ignition; put in a new ignition switch because I was having an intermittent no-start problem, usually when the car was hot.
2) Fix Speedo/ODO which had never worked since I got the car. Put in new nylon gear, soldered circuit connections
3) Replaced Tach; was a 5-speed conversion car so switched to correct 5-speed tach
4) Adjust Fuel Gauge needle so it would be accurate
5) Installed Warning LED's; replaced all (but 4, long story) dash lights with LED's. painstakingly checked polarities based on tracing the circuits, was sure of all but a few
6) Installed Jager Dash Light LED kit; checked all polarities per directions
7) Installed Jager Gauge Rings
At this point in hindsight I wish I waited on all the WYIT stuff to make it easier to trouble shoot and save my precious project time for fixing the real critical issues... oh well I'm in deep now.
History of main problem:
The car would intermittently not start and leave me needing a jump. Maybe once every ten starts. When it wouldn't start, NOTHING would happen; no turn over at all. A jump/extra juice to the starter would always overcome this and it would fire right up and usually run fine for a few days. Battery was/is fine. Seemed likely to be a 'ground problem'. I went though the car and wire-brushed every ground connection per the factory diagram and directions on RL. I even replaced the starter. Still problem persisted. Noticed that if I bypassed ignition by jumpering hot source to ignition relay (actually no relay in this car, 5-speed conversion so permanently jumped at the relay, thats a whole other side story), so figured there's a good chance the problem was a bad ignition switch. Either that or bad ECU, but ignitions a lot cheaper to check first. So thats the first thing that prompted me to start the project, although #2 on the above list really needed to be done too. The other things were just to improve car and make me happy.
So I replaced the ignition, seemed easy once the dash was out and it can only orient itself one way so no chance of putting it in backwards or that kind of problem. I did spray the old connectors with CRC Electronics cleaner, gentle wire brush and file-scuffed some surfaces and wiped down with cotton swabs. was dry when reassembled. Seemed to be all together securely enough. I did not have the black u-shaped clamp on the back of it later when I first tried to test dash, put it back on when noticed it was off.
After carefully soldering the Speedo/ODO pins to the circuit board (neat solders, no mess or problems caused by this that I could see) and tested the speedo circuits all worked and in fact one that hadn't worked when first tested before solder worked again. Replaced the ODO gear with a new nylon one, I reassembled tumbler and guage and it all seemed fine. I used Dwayne's awesome write-up as a guide.
Replaced the Tachometer, at first was confusing to see how different the 5-speed replacement was from the automatic P/N/R/D version that was in there (again, car was a 5-speed conversion and this had never been updated) but then realized that most of the guts were for the P/N/R/D lights and it seemed a drop-in affair. Figured the low-voltage for those lights would just no longer go to the tach and complete the circuit, hope thats the case and its a simple as that.
The rest of what I did was just cleaning connections with CRC Electronics cleaner and nail file, nothing heavy-handed. Tested all the circuits with ohm-meter and everything tested fine and looked good. All new LED bulbs were oriented correctly except for a final few that I guessed orientation on. Installed Jager Dash LED kit, I'm sure bulb orientation is correct per instructions. Carefully reassembled instrument cluster and did a few WYIT things that I doubt could have an impact like the problem I'm stuck at now.
I then installed that cluster loosely into the pod, reconnected the 3 main connectors to the circuit board on the cluster, looked to make sure nothing I could see would short against metal/wires... and reconnected the battery.
I put the key in the ignition and turned to run position to light up cluster; only the four warning bulbs for the 'low fuel', 'high temp', 'low voltage', & 'low oil-pressure' came on. Noticed that while the pod was loose, the plug had pulled lose from the headlight switch, so disconnected battery, reconnected that, reconnected battery and tried again. I thought for sure this time it would light up. but just the same four lights... at this point I was curious to see if the car would turn over so I turned the key to the 'start' position, heard a faint 'click' (no smell of anything cooked or puff of smoke from short), and those four lights went out, and nothing else happened, no start, no lights, nada. I checked the dash light fuse in the fuse/relay panel, the jumper wire I have to run in place of the ignition relay was the same... but now I'm stuck here.
I took the cluster back out and its on my work bench. It looks fine. The LED's light up when I test them with a 9v battery and no circuits look fried or burnt. Not sure whether to start disassembling this to check the guts of the speedo or tach...
About to disassemble the ignition again and inspect the switch. Will bust out the electrical diagram from shop manual PDF and start staring at it. What else should I check? Any idea of what these symptoms could indicate, other than obviously bad mechanic (me) ???
I would post pics but my crappy blackberry died in the middle of this project and I don't have a replacement camera/phone yet. I had taken a bunch of pics and planned to post pics of the various steps and show off my soldering, but now not having pics is just one more thing that has gone wrong here.
Sorry for epic problem post but thats just how screwed up things are here and I wanted to give enough detail to trouble-shoot if possible. If you're still reading at this point, any advice or help much appreciated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty discouraged about this right now... And I need some help trouble shooting what is wrong if possible. I just spent a bunch of time and money on this project and now feel farther behind than when I started...
Decided to post these issues in a new thread because the problems grew bigger than the scope and title of my other LED project thread, which only folks looking at LED dash projects would likely see.
I took my pod apart in order to fix the following things:
1) Ignition; put in a new ignition switch because I was having an intermittent no-start problem, usually when the car was hot.
2) Fix Speedo/ODO which had never worked since I got the car. Put in new nylon gear, soldered circuit connections
3) Replaced Tach; was a 5-speed conversion car so switched to correct 5-speed tach
4) Adjust Fuel Gauge needle so it would be accurate
5) Installed Warning LED's; replaced all (but 4, long story) dash lights with LED's. painstakingly checked polarities based on tracing the circuits, was sure of all but a few
6) Installed Jager Dash Light LED kit; checked all polarities per directions
7) Installed Jager Gauge Rings
At this point in hindsight I wish I waited on all the WYIT stuff to make it easier to trouble shoot and save my precious project time for fixing the real critical issues... oh well I'm in deep now.
History of main problem:
The car would intermittently not start and leave me needing a jump. Maybe once every ten starts. When it wouldn't start, NOTHING would happen; no turn over at all. A jump/extra juice to the starter would always overcome this and it would fire right up and usually run fine for a few days. Battery was/is fine. Seemed likely to be a 'ground problem'. I went though the car and wire-brushed every ground connection per the factory diagram and directions on RL. I even replaced the starter. Still problem persisted. Noticed that if I bypassed ignition by jumpering hot source to ignition relay (actually no relay in this car, 5-speed conversion so permanently jumped at the relay, thats a whole other side story), so figured there's a good chance the problem was a bad ignition switch. Either that or bad ECU, but ignitions a lot cheaper to check first. So thats the first thing that prompted me to start the project, although #2 on the above list really needed to be done too. The other things were just to improve car and make me happy.
So I replaced the ignition, seemed easy once the dash was out and it can only orient itself one way so no chance of putting it in backwards or that kind of problem. I did spray the old connectors with CRC Electronics cleaner, gentle wire brush and file-scuffed some surfaces and wiped down with cotton swabs. was dry when reassembled. Seemed to be all together securely enough. I did not have the black u-shaped clamp on the back of it later when I first tried to test dash, put it back on when noticed it was off.
After carefully soldering the Speedo/ODO pins to the circuit board (neat solders, no mess or problems caused by this that I could see) and tested the speedo circuits all worked and in fact one that hadn't worked when first tested before solder worked again. Replaced the ODO gear with a new nylon one, I reassembled tumbler and guage and it all seemed fine. I used Dwayne's awesome write-up as a guide.
Replaced the Tachometer, at first was confusing to see how different the 5-speed replacement was from the automatic P/N/R/D version that was in there (again, car was a 5-speed conversion and this had never been updated) but then realized that most of the guts were for the P/N/R/D lights and it seemed a drop-in affair. Figured the low-voltage for those lights would just no longer go to the tach and complete the circuit, hope thats the case and its a simple as that.
The rest of what I did was just cleaning connections with CRC Electronics cleaner and nail file, nothing heavy-handed. Tested all the circuits with ohm-meter and everything tested fine and looked good. All new LED bulbs were oriented correctly except for a final few that I guessed orientation on. Installed Jager Dash LED kit, I'm sure bulb orientation is correct per instructions. Carefully reassembled instrument cluster and did a few WYIT things that I doubt could have an impact like the problem I'm stuck at now.
I then installed that cluster loosely into the pod, reconnected the 3 main connectors to the circuit board on the cluster, looked to make sure nothing I could see would short against metal/wires... and reconnected the battery.
I put the key in the ignition and turned to run position to light up cluster; only the four warning bulbs for the 'low fuel', 'high temp', 'low voltage', & 'low oil-pressure' came on. Noticed that while the pod was loose, the plug had pulled lose from the headlight switch, so disconnected battery, reconnected that, reconnected battery and tried again. I thought for sure this time it would light up. but just the same four lights... at this point I was curious to see if the car would turn over so I turned the key to the 'start' position, heard a faint 'click' (no smell of anything cooked or puff of smoke from short), and those four lights went out, and nothing else happened, no start, no lights, nada. I checked the dash light fuse in the fuse/relay panel, the jumper wire I have to run in place of the ignition relay was the same... but now I'm stuck here.
I took the cluster back out and its on my work bench. It looks fine. The LED's light up when I test them with a 9v battery and no circuits look fried or burnt. Not sure whether to start disassembling this to check the guts of the speedo or tach...
About to disassemble the ignition again and inspect the switch. Will bust out the electrical diagram from shop manual PDF and start staring at it. What else should I check? Any idea of what these symptoms could indicate, other than obviously bad mechanic (me) ???
I would post pics but my crappy blackberry died in the middle of this project and I don't have a replacement camera/phone yet. I had taken a bunch of pics and planned to post pics of the various steps and show off my soldering, but now not having pics is just one more thing that has gone wrong here.
Sorry for epic problem post but thats just how screwed up things are here and I wanted to give enough detail to trouble-shoot if possible. If you're still reading at this point, any advice or help much appreciated.
Last edited by The_Remora; 08-16-2010 at 05:23 PM. Reason: update
04-23-2010, 10:57 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Site Sponsor
Chris,
The basic principle in troubleshooting is to break the problem into possible causes and then eliminate those causes as efficiently as possible.
Let's start with your no-start ;-)
The fact that you heard a faint click when you tried to start the engine very likely means that the problem is not (and possibly was never) in the dash.
Power goes from the battery to the ignition switch.
When you turn the switch to the START position, power is placed on the yellow wire on Terminal 50 of the switch.
The yellow wire runs to A23 (Terminal 23 on Plug A on the bottom of the Central Electric Panel) and from there to Terminal 86 of Relay XIV, the start relay, triggering the relay.
When Relay XIV operates (hopefully, the faint click) power is placed on Terminal 87 of the relay, and from there to Q13 (Terminal 13 of Plug Q) and the yellow wire.
The yellow wire in Q13 runs to the fourteen-pin connector located near the jump start terminal on the right fender panel, and from that connector down to Terminal 50 of the starter solenoid, where it triggers the heavy solenoid which switches the power to the starter motor and slams the starter gear into engagement with the ring gear on the engine.
- Use a test light or multimeter to test for voltage on the yellow wire in Q13 when you turn the ignition switch to the START position.
"Q" is Plug Q on the bottom of the Central Electric Panel. Plugs are alpha, left to right, with no I plug. There is a diagram of your car on our web site, under "928 Fuse & Relay Charts" in the list on the left. The terminals are arranged:
15 25
14 24
13 23
12 23
11 21
-If there is power on Q13 when you operate the switch. disassemble and clean the
fourteen-pin connector on the right front fender. Be careful - the wires can pop out of the connector, and you will then have to figure out how to get them back into the correct holes. The yellow wire in position #14 is likely to be your problem.
-If you touch a short jumper wire from the engine side of the yellow wire in Terminal 14 of the connector, the starter should immediately work. CAUTION: The starter should spin whether the transmission is in gear or not, so if it is in gear, the car will run over your foot and into the garage wall!! If the starter works, this eliminates the starter solenoid, starter, battery connections and the engine harness as the cause of the problem.
Again, the first suspect is the fourteen-pin connector, followed by a faulty yellow wire in the engine side of the harness.
Let us know if this doesn't fix the no-start condition.
The basic principle in troubleshooting is to break the problem into possible causes and then eliminate those causes as efficiently as possible.
Let's start with your no-start ;-)
The fact that you heard a faint click when you tried to start the engine very likely means that the problem is not (and possibly was never) in the dash.
Power goes from the battery to the ignition switch.
When you turn the switch to the START position, power is placed on the yellow wire on Terminal 50 of the switch.
The yellow wire runs to A23 (Terminal 23 on Plug A on the bottom of the Central Electric Panel) and from there to Terminal 86 of Relay XIV, the start relay, triggering the relay.
When Relay XIV operates (hopefully, the faint click) power is placed on Terminal 87 of the relay, and from there to Q13 (Terminal 13 of Plug Q) and the yellow wire.
The yellow wire in Q13 runs to the fourteen-pin connector located near the jump start terminal on the right fender panel, and from that connector down to Terminal 50 of the starter solenoid, where it triggers the heavy solenoid which switches the power to the starter motor and slams the starter gear into engagement with the ring gear on the engine.
- Use a test light or multimeter to test for voltage on the yellow wire in Q13 when you turn the ignition switch to the START position.
"Q" is Plug Q on the bottom of the Central Electric Panel. Plugs are alpha, left to right, with no I plug. There is a diagram of your car on our web site, under "928 Fuse & Relay Charts" in the list on the left. The terminals are arranged:
15 25
14 24
13 23
12 23
11 21
-If there is power on Q13 when you operate the switch. disassemble and clean the
fourteen-pin connector on the right front fender. Be careful - the wires can pop out of the connector, and you will then have to figure out how to get them back into the correct holes. The yellow wire in position #14 is likely to be your problem.
-If you touch a short jumper wire from the engine side of the yellow wire in Terminal 14 of the connector, the starter should immediately work. CAUTION: The starter should spin whether the transmission is in gear or not, so if it is in gear, the car will run over your foot and into the garage wall!! If the starter works, this eliminates the starter solenoid, starter, battery connections and the engine harness as the cause of the problem.
Again, the first suspect is the fourteen-pin connector, followed by a faulty yellow wire in the engine side of the harness.
Let us know if this doesn't fix the no-start condition.
04-23-2010, 12:35 PM
#3
Electron Wrangler
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Well do what Wally says - but also since this was an Auto once you also have a wire from the starter relay to the neutral safety switch that was in the transmission. Its no longer there but you rely on this wire being solidly grounded to be able to operate the starter. It is connected to the negative side of the starter relay coil. Its a Brown/Yellow wire as part of the 6 pin connector (only 3 used) in the spare tire well above and ahead of the battery box. Make sure this wire is grounded solidly - there is a ground point right in that location you can use.
I'd forget the Pod for now - take it out. Just get the car to run first - than start diagnising the Pod issues. It seems likely you either have all the bulbs backwards OR you have a connection issue with Pod power somewhere - check al the connectors really well...
Revert a few to incandescent to see if the bulb holders are powered...
Alan
I'd forget the Pod for now - take it out. Just get the car to run first - than start diagnising the Pod issues. It seems likely you either have all the bulbs backwards OR you have a connection issue with Pod power somewhere - check al the connectors really well...
Revert a few to incandescent to see if the bulb holders are powered...
Alan
04-24-2010, 05:28 PM
#4
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Boston
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I followed these procedures and then turned key to 'start' and the motor turned over vigorously. So thats progress in the right direction. Prior to that nada, so thats a definite step in the right direction. It wouldn't start and run but turned over instantly in a way that it hadn't before changing the ignition switch. Not sure if it was some grounds at the central computer, the switch or a combination of both, but at least the starting circuit is working strong now.
Put the cluster back in and the 4 warning bulbs mentioned were working again and the red Jager dash lights were working when the headlight switch was turned on. Still no other warning lights though. Probably is some monkey reason like me having them backwards or a major connector no hooked up right. Should have my new blackberry soon so can go back and look at all my 'before' pics and double check stuff. Tried to start it again with cluster in to see if same problem described above would occur for some reason and it didn't, just cranked over but again no start.
I ran out of time before I could do any more trouble-shooting, so will resume work in a few days when I have some more 'car time'. Just need to get it running next and get the instrument lights working again and I should be good to go!
Thanks for the help guys, I truly appreciate it
Chris
Put the cluster back in and the 4 warning bulbs mentioned were working again and the red Jager dash lights were working when the headlight switch was turned on. Still no other warning lights though. Probably is some monkey reason like me having them backwards or a major connector no hooked up right. Should have my new blackberry soon so can go back and look at all my 'before' pics and double check stuff. Tried to start it again with cluster in to see if same problem described above would occur for some reason and it didn't, just cranked over but again no start.
I ran out of time before I could do any more trouble-shooting, so will resume work in a few days when I have some more 'car time'. Just need to get it running next and get the instrument lights working again and I should be good to go!
Thanks for the help guys, I truly appreciate it
Chris
04-24-2010, 06:03 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Silly and obvious question Chris:
When you plug in the pod, are you plugging the right connectors into the right terminals? You couldn't have switched them, right? When you plug the connectors in, those two little plastic arms "click", right?
When you don't plug in a connector, or it isn't fully connected, you get those kinds of symptoms. Just checking.
When you plug in the pod, are you plugging the right connectors into the right terminals? You couldn't have switched them, right? When you plug the connectors in, those two little plastic arms "click", right?
When you don't plug in a connector, or it isn't fully connected, you get those kinds of symptoms. Just checking.
04-24-2010, 07:58 PM
#6
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Boston
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No question is too silly when I'm working on a vehicle
They sure seem to be the right connectors, Scott, and yep they did 'click' into place. I did play around with them to see if they could have gotten flipped out of place or reversed, and the location they hang behind the pod area (when not connected) are right in line with where the corresponding plugs are when I put the gauge cluster in place. The clips secure against the little plastic tabs on the circuit board and didn't look as though they'd work at all if reversed 180*. I think I had the orientation right, but obviously something is screwed up, and the things you've described are likely culprits. I will definitely go back over these again to double check all this. Will help when I can look at the 'before' pictures I took.
I really do hope its something basic like having the plugs reversed. I'm up in the city now a couple of hours away from where I have the car stored so can't even look at these things for a few more days, which is frustrating because I can't stop thinking about the project, can't wait to get it running again.
Thanks again, Scott!
Chris
They sure seem to be the right connectors, Scott, and yep they did 'click' into place. I did play around with them to see if they could have gotten flipped out of place or reversed, and the location they hang behind the pod area (when not connected) are right in line with where the corresponding plugs are when I put the gauge cluster in place. The clips secure against the little plastic tabs on the circuit board and didn't look as though they'd work at all if reversed 180*. I think I had the orientation right, but obviously something is screwed up, and the things you've described are likely culprits. I will definitely go back over these again to double check all this. Will help when I can look at the 'before' pictures I took.
I really do hope its something basic like having the plugs reversed. I'm up in the city now a couple of hours away from where I have the car stored so can't even look at these things for a few more days, which is frustrating because I can't stop thinking about the project, can't wait to get it running again.
Thanks again, Scott!
Chris
05-13-2010, 08:21 PM
#7
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Boston
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got down to the cape to work on my S4 for a bit today. The car turns over nicely now but still no start. I checked for spark and it gives a nice spark at the plug. I wasnt sure it was getting fuel though - didnt smell much in the cylinder and didn't hear the injectors. I still have the dash mostly apart. Have the instrument cluster plugged in but don't have the pod connected. The car was running when I parked it before instrument disassembly... Is there something in the dash, say wiring to the EZK that would prevent the car from running in this state of partial disassembly or can it run with the pod apart? I'd like to get it running before I reassemble the pod if possible so that I can make sure all the bulbs are working. Theyre not all lighting up, but thats another issue that I'll work on once its running and I can better test all the instruments and lights. Can work on it a bit tomorrow morning, hope to make some progress and get this thing back on the road. Whats the fastest way to test that the fuel system is working? Any other suggestions on what to look at next? Thx
Trending Topics
05-13-2010, 11:48 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My tach was very intermittent until I replaced the ground strap from engine to chassis. It worked for a couple of days, then it became intermittent again. Today I was able to reach up into the belly of the pod and disconnect the two main connectors. Sprayed them with WD40, reconnected, and the tach has been solid for the last fifty miles. So far, WD40 has cured many problems. I'm gonna buy a case of it.
