Stephen Porter

I'm thinking of getting this procedure done on Sharky. The topic came up in another thread, but rather than hijack that thread on a stroker GTS, I thought I would just start a new one. Here's a quote from Bill in that thread:

Bill,

I'm thinking about getting the BG treatment on Sharky. I haven't encountered any pinging, so it would only be because the compression test we did at your place showed readings above 200 psi when we cranked it more than the "normal" 5-6 times and you mentioned this might be due to carbon build up. I checked the website for local shops that offer the service and they all seem to be "general" auto repair shops. AAMCO transmission shops and Midas shops also. I'm assuming that this isn't a particularly hi-tech procedure, but I thought I would check here for any recommendations. I'm not totally sure I NEED to do this, but it would be interesting to check the compression again after it was done. I'm going to call around and check prices also and will update here on that.

Mrmerlin

put a bottle of techron in the fuel and go drive the car hard, make the trip about 500miles....

FWIW, it sounds like you might be trying to fix a problem thats not there.
Normal cranking with the plugs out is 6 revolutions (compression strokes)
I would have a hard time turning my car over to a shop so they could " clean" the engine..
Dude go drive the car, hard and far.........

danglerb

Greg has a Carbon Clean system at Precision, but I don't know what flavor of "magic juice" he uses.

You might want to try a can of Lubro Moly Ventil Sauber.

Stuff on ebay for DIY
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=250484900588

BG Prod link to company.
http://www.bgprod.com/products/fuelair.html

IcemanG17

Stephen
I also vote for the "italian tune up"....... Back in the days when I used to take Sharky to DE's she always seemed to run BETTER after the track days.....gave her a chance to clear her lungs so to speak....

If your interested in a road trip....cruise to norcal.....enjoy a weekend DE....cruise back to LA.....problem solved and you have a blast.....I can arrange an instructor for you too!!! Someone who knows the car pretty well.... :>) Don't worry too much about DE being "hard" on the car.....in the beginner classes the pace isn't that bad..... It would be easy for you to arrange a DE in LA too......I'm sure Jim Bailey would be glad to ride around with you at a POC event!!

worf928

blown 87 first turned us on to BG's intake treatment. His carbon buildup that was bad enough that the motor sounded like it was going to bang itself apart. The BG took it right off.

dr bob

Stephen,

I'm interested in what the charge is for a commercial place to do the full treatment. I'm on the fence about buying the pressure cannister needed to do the FI cleanup part at about $80 plus some cusom pumbing to get it attached to the S4 fuel rail. With a few users needing it, the cost would be easier to absorb I guess.

Next part is the push of the intake cleaner downstream of the MAF. I have an idea how to do that via the pass side cam cover vent hose into the intake connector between the MAF and the throttle, will confirm that when I pull the intake this fall.

I'm pretty sure that I can figure out how to get the fuel additive into the tamk without anything more complex than a funnel.


My car needds to pass smog in the next few weeks. I did the Italian tune-up a few times between LA and DFW, and also fixed the failed knock sensor and hall sensor errors I had showing on the tester. The car has a post-purchase history of being marginal on NOx, maybe those fixes and the throat-clearing have done the trick. The sniffer will tell me in the next few days.

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928 Chowderheads lunch is at 11am tomorrow at the same place as last time, Hill St. Cafe in Burbank, on Glenoaks between Hollywood Way and Buena Vista on the west side. Join us if you can.

blown 87

You need the BG canister to do a 928.
As far as cost, I charge 120 for it.

The only part you need is the canister for the air intake system cleaner, the other two can go in the tank.

I will all end up going through the injectors if you put it in the tank.

Depending on how much smoke comes out of the car I sometimes send a extra can of 44K with the car.

PS: IMHO it is far better than anything on the market, I had a Snap-On motor vac and I found I was using the BG stuff to get some cars clean, so back the motorvac went.

Stephen Porter

I called two places. First quoted $125, but I think he misunderstood me and that is only for the fuel-injection cleaning portion, i.e. NO intake tract cleaning, since the second place I called quoted $200 "discount" price for doing both fuel-injection and intake. Then he also mentioned that "we don't work on Porsches." I'm going to call a couple of more and will report back. FWIW, I checked Sharky's maintenance records (from Brian's stewardship) and see that there were new "Ford" (?) injectors installed in April of 2008, about 4K miles ago. So I would assume that the injectors are probably clean, and if there is any problem it would be in the intake, valve-train, piston tops???

Bill's original suggestion was the "Italian Tuneup" also, and I don't think any of my driving so far would qualify. I drove it back from S.F. to L.A. but mostly on Hwy 1 and the best I could do was short bursts of 80-90 mph due to traffice and the scarcity of sections of highway where high speeds would even be possible. Since then I've only made a couple of trips down to OC few trips around here and those CERTAINLY didn't do it.

As Mr. Merlin points out I definitely might be onto a non-existent problem. It's certainly subjectively non-existent since the car seems to run just fine with no pinging that I'm aware of. I realize that I'm going to have to seek out and find opportunities to push this car--I'm starting to get a real feeling for the fact that I really have no idea of what a beast this is. (Floored it on a long on-ramp yesterday and started get just a hint of some wild power--reminded me of a highly modified 951 I had a ride in once, when the boost came on, and on...and on.... ;-)).

One of the big problems of newbies/amateurs (moi) in any area is the extreme experiential vaccuum when it comes to subjective knowledge about just what is "normal" behavior for the car. For example, I don't really know what might be considered the parameters of a useful IT/blowout-the-carbon, exercise would be--100 + mph sustained for XXX minutes at a time?? A couple of hot laps around the track?? I dunno. Brian's suggestion of a nice trackday outing would qualify also?? It would be fun to do a road trip up north, but there are probably events down here that would be suitable also. (One fly in that ointment might be that I'd have to buy NEW seatbelts since Sharky's are 20+ years old. I know I couldn't go to the last auto-x with the 924S because of that.) Or maybe someone local and qualified and I could go to Willow Springs next open track day and do that?

The BG treatment first mentioned by Bill seems to be one that is definitely useful for gunked-up motors, but wheter I have one or not is debatable. Since figuring this out seems to be fall into the "suitable for beginners" category on the "101 Projects for your 928," I wouldn't mind figuring it out.

I'm thinking another compression test to get the present baseline would be the thing to do and then gradiently apply the Techron/IT method and check again. If needed, progress onto something like BG and test again.

I think someone said that with a borescope and an experienced eye you can just LOOK and see if and how badly things are coked up. That really might be the first logical step also, but may be harder to accomplish than the others (no borescope, no experience in using one, no idea of what to look for). The only data I have now is the fact that Sharky's pre-sale compression numbers got up into the 205-215 psi range when cranked beyond the normal 5-6 pumps where a "clean" engine would top out, and I'm not even sure I have that right.

I'm kind of rambling now and I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, just a way to gather more information, get a little more familiar with my car, etc., by devising a logical approach to finding out if there is a problem, doing a few compression checks, comparing results of an "fixes" applied.

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I'll be there, God willing and the creek don't rise.

IcemanG17

Stephen
Yup "Ford" racing balanced injectors....the exact same ones that Stan runs (I got the lead from him).....it really didn't make much of a difference in how sharky ran....but I was endlessly chasing down a low idle.....and that ended up being a gunked up idle stablizer valve that I replaced when I did all the intake work (with Bill).....

IcemanG17

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...=flap+dectomny

Heres the best pic I have of the intake valves...you can see in there a little bit....but they were only slightly discolored...no black gunk or anything on there.....

blown 87

Using a compression tester to check for carbon is not a good method IMHO.

I have a borescope, used it today, most likely I will use it again tomorrow, it does not matter.

The BG service is a damned good PM service, if for nothing else to just clean the junk off of the back of the intake valves.

My cars, all my cars get it every fourth oil change, when I had carbed cars I did it every other oil change.

My old Chevelle could build up almost a 1/4 inch of crap on the back side if the intake in 5,000 miles using nothing but Ammoco 93.

Will the BG service fix your car, I have not clue, but I do know it wont hurt it.

Ok, in a nutshell, what it is really good for.

lowering HC for emmision testing, I have seen cars go from over 1,100 PPM on HC to under 50 PPM from just doing a cleaning.
It will also help on NOX.

Cars that have CIS and cold start problems, the first thing I do after making sure the timers and temp senors are working is a BG service.

I never was a fan of the mechanic in a can, but this stuff works, what else can I say other than the whole product line works from what I have used.

The BG penetrating oil is the best you can buy, you can talk Kroil, WD40, what ever, it is not near as good.
The Power steering stuff works about as much as the trans additive does, which is bout 20% of the time.

The MOA has a lot of the things that the new API SM oils do not, I have used it for years, I could go on, but why, it works, simple as that.

The other Greg

Greg Nettles

worf928

Additional comments on BG:

1) An owner up here in Yankee Land did the BG treatment upon my recommendation. It dropped his N0x from over 2000 ppm to IIRC 900 - enough to pass.

2) When you do the BG treatment you need to make sure that the flappy does not interfere with the process. If you use the port on the side of the intake you need to hold the flappy open with a hand-pump. If you introduce it directly to the throttle body via the Y-hose for the tank vent, then you don't.

3) If you introduce the BG to the rubber guide's y-connector via the breather you'll be introducing the BG between the MAF and the throttle plate. Maybe OK. Maybe not? Too close to the MAF? And blocked by the throttle plate against the idle stop?

4) Same car as in #1 above. When I instructed the owner on the flappy, he had the treatment done again and it dropped NOx by another 50% or so IIRC.

dr bob

My impression from several posts including from Greg N is that the intake cleaner goes in between the MAF and the throttle. Devices I've seen include a flattened tube that slides into the rubber boot next to the MAF, sprays onto the throttle. There's really no difference IMO between dribbling up or downstream of the throttle plate, so long as all of it actually goes through the motor. It would seem to me that introducung anything through the brake vacuum port on the driver's side would favor the valves on the pass side, thanks to having all those convenient horns right there. Path to the other side horns is long and counter to the airflow from the plenum just down from the throttle.

I want to do something soon, so may go grab the injection cylinder tomorrow. I have the pressure gauge fitting I made for the fuel rail, that would be a good place to do the injection injection. Some divine inspiration for the intake cleaner will happen once I have that and some plumbing fittings out on the worktable I'm sure.

entropy_engineering

I used to be a teacher at an automotive school, and this is how it got broken down to me in a technical training seminar once. Back, I believe in the eighties, chevron invented a chemical called polyethermine that was proven to be effective against removing carbon deposits. The highest concentration somewhat commonly available in a product is produced by BG Fuel System. The next closest "common" competitor is Wynn's. I've seen in person some before and after tests it's pretty amazing. The step that hooks in to the fuel rail and applies the cleaner directly through the injectors is the strongest part. We unhooked the exhaust on a car before and after the treatment (like a couple hours later) and even the cells in the cat looked cleaner. Freaking amazing. You have to be a little careful with the step that injects to the intake manifold...The engine should be revved up hard now and then to make sure no liquid accumulates in the plenum to be "gulped" in later and possibly hydrolock the motor. Of course you know, every turbo engine I've ever taken apart that had water methanol injection used on it much looked like the day it was put together, and turbo motors carbon up bad. Nothing like a good steam cleaning.

danglerb

$80 at HF for the injector cleaner canister. Might make for a fun "carbon clean" party, case of BG, maybe neighbors ready to kill after half a dozen cars though.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=95834