Jim Nowak

Look in the correct section, Tabor. I was referring to the power the white car has today! www.devek.net/whitecar.htm
You too need to get your facts straight! Ha! Ha!

Jim

Tabor

Jim: I am sorry, I got the figures off of this page: www.devek.net/stroker.htm

That doesn't change the fact that:

stroker kit: $7,500.00

big valve heads: $5,650+

GT cams: $2000?

DEVEK headers $625.00

custom 4" exhaust $1300+?

30 lb injectors $425.00

rising rate fuel pressure regulator $395

more ???, they don't specify

so that is ~$18,000 without even dealing with what they mean by "more" also, I am not sure how much the GT cams cost.

So, that is $18,000 for 365.7hp at the rear wheels. Up from the stock 266.6.

That is $18,000 for 99hp, or $182/hp.

So, your statement "For $13,000-$15,000 Devek will build a motor that produces the same power as George's motor and probably more considering George has never run his across a chassis dyno so we really don't know what that car puts to the pavement. Power to the ground is the only power that matters." is not truthful.

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: Tabor Kelly ]

Jim Nowak

Tabor,

Lets do the math. Rear wheel dyno numbers are not the same as flywheel, "Mutant Ninja horsepower," especially on the overly opptimistic water brake dynos. Stock S4 engine produces 316 hp or 266 at the wheels. Losses through the driveline account for 16% in the s4, but the real number is probably 20% because Porsche usually always underestimates their hp numbers. The s4 with the modification's is actually producing close to 440hp or a 125 hp increase.
I got the price for Devek's work out of last month's Excellence. I think there is an economies of scale in pricing when you are doing this much work. When someone tells you they can build an engine that will produce a certain hp. number don't assume that accessories and exhaust are included. An engine builder will ship you a "long block" with instructions on the other components that it takes to get to that number. Like the C5-R, the price is $60,000 plus engine management and that could be an extra $15,000+.
I've said it before and I'll say it again I have seen "550 hp. big-block motors" only put 340 hp to the Dynojet chassie dyno. On a recent episode of Crank and Crome I witnessed them dyno a small block stroked Ford motor on a water-brake dyno and produce 490 hp. without nitrous and close to 600 hp with nitrous,but could only put 316 of that naturally aspirated 490 hp and 370 of the nitrous hp to the ground. If you ever drive a car, before and after, with an extra 100 rwhp I don't think you will ever think it's just "100 hp." Trust me, a car with close to 370 hp to the rear wheels will literally "scare the hell" out of you especially coming out of a naturally aspirated 944. If George's 911 v8 could put 400 hp to the ground without nitrous I would be very surprised and I have even offered to pay for his dyno session.

Jim Nowak

Abby Normal

Jim,

The car is putting MUCH MORE than 400HP to the ground... over 400 without no2... I am still amazed that any of you out there doubt George's word... I have known him for over 10 years and his word is as solid as anyone I have ever met.... I have seen the dyno sheets and George by no means needs you to pay for anything to tell him how much power his car makes... I have spoke with you in length and found you to be a pretty nice guy... Why don't you take that drive from Florida and come see the car for yourself? Cheaper than the dyno and a get away to New Orleans would probably do you some good... All of this "key board" "race guru" **** is played out... We are going to the track Saturday with the car... Remember this 911 is his slow car!! Come see for yourself.
Abby

Carlos

Tabor, you and I have disagreed before but you are 1000% right on this. Anybody who thinks Devek will build them a copy of the white car motor for 15k is on crack.
Jim, Prozac will help. Your numbers on George's motor are as wrong as Tabor is right. Lets look at some facts, not made up bull****
1. Jeff Gordon makes 800 hp from 347 inched of sb chevy. These motors run WIDE OPEN for 500 miles 30 or so weekend per yr. Failures are rare. Explain all that crap about rw hp to him.
2.Custom engine builders will provide motors in whatever degree of completion you desire
3. R&D is expensive. Thats why Porsche parts are so astronomical in price. High R&D, low volume. A Scat crank for a 928 is $3500 or so. Same crank for a chevy, under a grand.
4. If you think those two clowns on Crank & Chrome are race motor experts, then let them build yours.
5. If anybody is driving over 200 mph for 20 miles for no particular reason, they're an idiot.
6. George's 911 is THE FASTEST street car that I personally have ever seen.
7. Snowball is on the right track.
And wether or not you can handle it, you just heard another edition of the truth.

Ed Ruiz

Carlos:
I'm not going to argue with you on any of the points you made, but one.

The engines used in Nascar race cars are completely torn-down and rebuilt for every race. Not one of them is used in more than one race. High "HP" and "Longevity" are usually mutually exclusive.

There is a 928 owner in Georgia that is still driving his old bugger that has over 600k miles on the original engine. I seriously doubt any SB Chevy that has been tweeked for max HP will come within 10% of that mileage. YMMV.

George 911-V8

Jim and who ever else don't understand I have a street car not some (200mph salt flat car). I built this car due to the fact that I did not want to spend 45 to 50k with pete at andial to go fast and only 500hp maybe 550hp tops for the street get real. Devek can make 500hp for 15k how? Pete at andial says no way under 45k and pete is the best porsche race engine builder in the US call him and see what he says on the subject 714-957-3900. Jim I enjoy these chats about hp and performance and I like the 928 engine the best. I think porsche was before it's time with this car and just had to many irons in the fire when they made the car to really r&d racing performance. The V8 engine is the best to get power from and it's all in the matter of parts period. Devek says he has the best and fastest 928 V8's and until I see someone go faster than him with a 928 V8 I guess he is the man for now.

George George's 911-V8

Tabor

I was not planning on putting a chevy in my Porsche. But at the same time, I don't expect to get Porsche power for chevy prices. After the last chevy in a Porsche debate I went looking, and it it very expensive to modify 928s.


I decided that it is probaly best if I purchase a 928S4 and be content with the 316 CHP I have.

[ 06-29-2001: Message edited by: Tabor Kelly ]

Jim Nowak

Carlos,

I sense some hostility. I'm not the only one who knows that this power will not come reliably or cheaply from a chevy 350.
I did not say you could have the engine that Devek uses in the "white car"; rather, I said that you could have a motor that is as strong as a $13,000 Chevy 350 or at least that is what I meant.
Yes, a Chevy 350 can be made to produce some serious horseposer. A nascar motor can turn at rpms that will make a motorcycle blush and cost in excess of $40,000 ++++ to build. Carlos, I really don't know where you get your figures so I did more research on the cost of a nascar engine and found none that provided the cost per hp that you are claiming and certainly none that were street engines. Once again, I will provide outside opinions/facts from people in the racing industry. Check this out http://asc.nasaproracing.com.ascmiss.html and please read this web site. $40,000 FOR 540hp AND THAT ENGINE WILL HAVE A VERY LIMITED LIFESPAN. Who is full of ca ca now and no I don't need Prozak to see the truth. O.K. lets provide some more proof from a Chevy engine builder. www.airflowresearch.com/chevy_dyno.htm please scroll down to the blown and stroked Lt-1 engine with 12 psi of boost and check out the rear-wheel hp. numbers they are just a little more than the Devek car has but the Devek car is normally aspirated. I'm sure this guy is telling everyone about how his car dynoed at 700 flywheel hp. O.K. here is another pretty bad chevy "350" with 530 hp. www.fordvschevy.com/chevy/super_ls1.html
I think that something or someone has affected your ability to do any research on actual costs of an engine like George say's he has in his 911. I plan to do more research, in particular Chevy 350 engines, because I do wan't to put a 350 in a 911 or 944.
George, when you talk about 911 engines and the cost to make them go fast, I know that is a fact and I whole heartedly believe in your approach with your 911.

Jim Nowak

I was willing to agree to disagree with your claims.

George 911-V8

Snowball you like the phrase DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT well I do everyday. I just got the big reds and 15"rotors put on this week and I am going to the track tomorrow to see the new track no problemraceway.com check it out. We are having a pca event coming up and sat is the drivers meeting for all involved in the race. I will make some test laps just for fun, I will keep you posted. Tabor get the s4 its a great car and you can upgrade to a vortech supercharger when you are ready for more power. Snowball try a 50-100hp shot of the big blue bottle for some quick hp (cheap).


George

George George's 911-V8

Jim Nowak

Sorry,

Thats http://asc.nasaproracing.com/ascmiss.html

Mogans

Thanks for the spirited comments and insights. The Chevy engine sections of this post were interesting, but I'm afraid I don't have any interest in putting one in my car. So, if I was going to replace my original '81 engine with a later, more powerful Porsche 928 engine, would there be any restrictions, complications or further expense caused by;
(a)variance in physical size to the original engine,
(b)variance in valves (2 vs. 4),
(c) transmission differences (mine's a 5 speed)
(d) anything else under the sun?

Or would I be free to look at any 928 engine as a donor for my '81, including an S4 (as discussed earlier), a GT, etc.? Thanks again.

Carlos

Jim why do you have such a problem with this. Anyone who shows up at a NASCAR event w/ 540 HP will waste some gas then load up and go home. THEY WILL NOT MAKE THE FIELD. Those motors turn 7 to 8500 rpm's (like many other sb Chevys). Bikes turn upwards of 15K. The motor at the AFR site is VERY mild. And last but not least, my "research" is not limited to web sites. It includes dyno sheets I have seen with my own eyes and results (championships) of people using the engines that produce this power. You cant run 7 or 8 second quarter miles powered by bull****! It takes copious amount of HORSEPOWER. 500 wont cut it. Like they say, physics is physics. The laws of physics dont care how much you spent or where it came from.

Jim Nowak

Carlos,

I SAID A CHEVY 350 IS CAPABLE OF VERY HIGH HORSEPOWER BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO LAST VERY LONG NOR WILL IT BE CHEAP TO BUILD A 550 HP NORMALY ASPIRATED "STREET ENGINE." I have provided many FACTS and documentation to back up everything I have stated. I don't see any facts being exchanged, very one-sided, and I'm getting frustrated by the lack of reciprocity in our discussions.

Like I said before: I will agree to disagree with you on this subject.

Good day and good luck with your Chevy engine conversion let us know how it goes.

Thanks,

Jim Nowak