924srr27l

Hi, what your looking for (Cheap track fun and street use) is probably the biggest and hardest task to achieve and with several compromises.


You could drive 3 Scenerio's and still not be sure which is the best compromise?


A cheap 924 2.0 Race car will not fit your desire to use it on the street unless like some your totally up for a hard core bone shaking ride? but even though the old Audi Lump is the least powerful this car on the track would out handle and lap quicker than the other 2 variants (924S & 944) semi trackers or upgraded street cars.


Also it depends greatly on what experience and talent you have had on racetracks?


With respect like many if you've never been on a track or Raced at all then it will be of course a total new experience and there is a lot to learn and take in compared to fast street driving.


This means your choice of car is not critical initially as your learning because you'll be seconds off each lap time what you may achieve after you've done say 20+ trackdays.


Your biggest priority is the condition of what gets hit hard, much harder on the car than any street use:


Brakes, Suspension, Tyres and Engine.


All of these items need to be good or really good depending on how hard you and the car push?


A prospective car make look cheap, but if you cook the engine, burn out the tyres, and even go off due to worn bushes and worn Shock absorbers etc.. it will be frustrating and start to be more expensive than you thought.


Any of the 3 models in Top condition will be the best bet to start with, look at the car' condition and the service history, not the purchase price.


I've seen many times people putting a cheap car on the track to then not
enjoy it due to poor reliability and shoddy handling.


Of course the 2.5 Porsche engine in a 24 or 44 has more torque and power than the 2.0 which will make it easier for you to learn the ropes when lapping race circuits, but the 2.0 you'll be revving harder and with more full throttle which sometimes is easier to get your foot on the gas early with no concerns or issues of controlling wheelspin


I think if you buying budget is $500 your gonna get just that a very cheap
car that I'd imagine will not be in good shape for hard circuit driving, you might get one visit but then will need to spend some money, otherwise what's the point in doing it?


A $3000 + street car that's been well maintained , already been on track even with modifications already done is a far better bet in my opinion, also because if you get bored you'll resell it on easily and probably not lose any money on it.


Roger

Shawn Stanford

The point is not to beat up - or strip - the 951. Especially since I'm probably going to sell it come spring.

Shawn Stanford

So, here's the thing: I already find the ride in my 951 to be too much for more than a couple hours of driving. It's not that I can't take it, it's that I don't want to. That's why I have a 928. My 951 has been mildly modded by a previous owner, so I couldn't say how much of the ride is 951 and how much is my 951. At any rate: I'm not looking for a bone-jarring ride.


I've done a one-day performance driving course at Bertil Roos. It was fun, and I'd like to do more events, like PCA DEs and such, but I don't want to beat on my 951. It was on the track for maybe three hours at that event and it's picked up a buzz in the dash. There's no point in hammering on that car when I can buy one cheap and have fun with it.


Yes, that was my thinking as well: It doesn't really matter what I drive, it's how I drive it.


True. But a $500 car with a couple thousand in parts and whatnot is cheaper to run that a $15k-$20k car that I beat until it's a $10k car. At least, that's my thinking.


Thanks, Roger. I'll keep all of this in mind. I appreciate your time.

924srr27l

Yes I get that, and that sounds like a great condition high value car ?


So as long as your happy buying a cheaper, inferior and much slower transaxle hack and attempting to push HARD? on a circuit then you'll be Ok?,


But if you like me get annoyed driving something that is not up to the job? then you'll probably get just that.


I've tracked 2 really good condition and great street Handling Porsches and both were no good at all on the track, far too soft, stock brakes were cooked and the motor blew a HG ! One of them was a daily drive for over a year with no issues whatsoever, but 20 mins of proper Hard driving and it killed it!


I have Raced 125cc Shifter Karts though for over 20+ years, these birds fly and handle like nothing else.. so an equivalent track machine would need to be a Single seater really for me to be Impressed.


It always depends on your expectations and experience, hence for many a cheap car will be pretty poor and some people would not entertain such a venture as it's pointless.


However if you've never been on track or competed in Racing before? you might be fine...


R

2mAn

Wouldnt the S or S2 motors be the best ones for an NA setup? The 16v loves to spin the higher RPMs There was a slicktop/ LSD equipped model not too far from you ( East Coast) that was selling for cheap. I was (and still sort of am) tempted to buy it and swap in my 16v 'S' motor into it. Gut it out and for just a few grand have a pretty solid setup for track day fun. With a total investment of ~$5000 you could probably build a pretty fun reliable car

edit: sorry it was on Pelican
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...sd-1200-a.html

StoogeMoe

This can be a faulty way of thinking, unless you take the cheap car and make it absolutely reliable. The last thing you want to have happen at the track is to have some kind of issue that you can't fix. Then you lose time and all the track fees, which aren't insignificant.

BUT, I did exactly that. I bought a car without an engine, bought another wrecked one with a running engine. Rebuilt completely the running engine and put in the cheap car. It took about a year to work out all the bugs and make completely reliable. Basically replaced anything that moved or was rubber. Then I joined the PCA and added a bunch of safety and suspension mods to make it suitable for the track. That car took me through the ranks up to instructor before I switched to something else to race.

I still daily drive that car, but you have to keep in mind that these are old cars. Something will break. You have to be able to stomach that. It will be much cheaper if you can do most of the work yourself. If you enjoy that aspect of it as much as driving, then you'll be ok. If you don't like working on cars, then get a car from someone who tracks it. You'll still have to do stuff, but nowhere near the same as starting from ground zero.

V2Rocket

i think the safest course of action for the $500-destined-to-be-a-racer car is to buy it and strip it end to end until it is a bare hull...figure out what you want to put back in for a racer (bare minimum) and inspect every single thing (every inch of wire), replace hoses, etc..then you can be assured of maximum reliability.

stripping a 944 isn't very hard...just need a few dedicated days to do it.

harveyf

This is your throttle pedal graph for a 944 track car:
....._____________________ ..........___________________
.....|..................................|..........|.................... ............|
___|..................................| _____|.................................| ____

This is your brake pedal graph for a track car:

___ ...................................._____............................... ... ____
.....|...................................|........|..................... ...........|
.....|____________________|........|___________________|

Message: Track driving is pretty tough on the old drive train. I started out with a $3000 car. Broke it multiple times before I went through it entirely. Nary a problem since (knock on wood).

There is nothing worse than the sinking feeling you get when your track car dies on you Saturday morning of a 2 day track weekend that you paid a $400 entry fee, 2 nights non-refundable hotel, gas, new tires, etc, etc, etc.
As the man says, you're going to pay me now or pay me later.

Personally, I'd run the 951 for the first 6 events and see how it goes for you. Again, knock on wood, but I can't remember that last green group event where there was serious damage to a car. At most DEs (especially PCA events) they are very interested in no car to car contact, off track excursions, etc. They really want you to come back. By the time you invest in a proper car that will hold up on the track, you could probably buy another 951.

Except for the fact that you already own one, I probably wouldn't advise a 951 for a beginner. More hp to get you in trouble. More technical complexity. I vote early 944. Lighter. Simpler. You can actually work on it yourself. New and used parts are readily available. Very balanced car. Good to learn upon. And yes, you'll have to point by a ton of higher powered stuff on the straights. Get your revenge in the corners when you are chewing on their asses!

Check out my website for articles about my track car build.

Noahs944

I like late 944 models the best in terms of build quality. Harvey has a good point to use your 951 for the first few sessions.

Shawn Stanford

My 951 is pristine and has 77k on the clock. They're just now starting to appreciate, I really don't want to flog it while I learn to drive.

morghen

How about this?
Buy a running, late 924 NA(1980 onwards, if you can get your hands on an 83 thats the best), dont strip the interior as its just wood fiber(very light and will better keep reselling value in case you decide to move to another car) refresh the bushings and shocks on it, replace the springs with a bit stiffer ones, upgrade to sway bars from a 944 turbo, add some performance pads and shoes and make sure the engine is running properly and take that to the track for the first few sessions...take it slow and start on the learning curve. This car should be quite cheap and easy to get set up.

Then after a few sessions you can decide if you want to upp the power and further improve the 924 into a race car or move on to another car.
If you want to build on the 924, you can upgrade the brakes to 944 ones in a very easy and cheap way, everything is bolt on, you dont even have to take off the wishbones, just replace the hubs and calipers it literally takes you 1 hour.
Then you can invest in some coilovers and then you can start work on the engine as well.

If you upgrade to a ROW spec 2L engine you're starting with 125hp.
Thats pistons, ignition dizzy and amp box...all that you can buy used from Europe.
There are headers that can further improve the performance of the 2L.
Also there are various cams you can choose from depending on what you're looking for.
There is a bolt on, drop in +20hp solution, a reworked head from a company in Germany, its a bit pricey at around 1.7k but well worth it.

All in all you can have a peak 150hp engine with very good mid range power.
Belly guess is that this would be a 5-6k car.
Ofcourse you can probably seqeaze more by converting to EFI or rebuilding to 2.2L but thats a stretch.

Here is an european spec 2L 924 with headers, a hotter cam and i think some ignition system upgrade.
Guy is testing it on local roads so no racing, just some sprinted drive.

mel_t_vin

Shawn, is ride quality the primary reason you plan on selling your car?

Any idea what springs/dampers/torsions the PO fitted? If the PO installed some aggressive sport dampers, it would be very easy to replace them with more compliant OE standard Boge/Sachs dampers to improve ride quality.

924srr27l

I agree and totally understand, i would feel the same.

It would be a silly idea to Track this car, as it's low mileage as you say going up in value and it would go down drastically with the potential for damage and anything going wrong and breaking from Hard track driving...

Sell it shortly, then buy a rack car already done if you're not keen on faffing about stripping and building one which could be another year of your life..

As a few members have said they are old cars and once you start stripping them , of course it's easy to do but it's so much harder an expensive to put them back together again and costly with new and upgraded parts..

R

raleighBahn

I would find a used BMW 3-series (e46 probably). They are inexpensive, handle great, easy to work on, and lots of parts. You will spend the same money taking a 924 or old 944 up to HPDE readiness and still not have as much car.

Shawn Stanford

That's kind of what I'm thinking, I'm just trying to decide on my starting point. Why the 924 rather than the 924S?

No, that's the reason I don't take it on drives or more than two or three hours. I want a car I'm comfortable taking to the track, but I have limited garage space. If another car goes in, one has to come out. The Boss has spoken (and she's right). If I didn't have a space issue, I'd have already made an offer on a car.

Cant do it. I'm a Porsche guy.