Noahs944

You couldn’t have convinced me driving dirt roads at night was a good idea. Especially when the roads narrow atop mountainous cliffs hundreds of feet up from what is your certain death should you suffer from a punctured tire or dislodge your car’s tie rod end at the wrong place, the wrong time. Plus the idea seems worse when you include sheer cliffs with falling rock hazards overhead.

Now one must also consider the other dangers of driving in the wilderness… regardless of time of day; For example in this neck of the woods (Western Canada) there are cattle, wild horses, deer and bear. A collision with any one of these will render your car inoperable.

And I suppose it’s only practical to prepare as best you can for mechanical breakdowns, of which there are many. Perhaps even more in a classic or vintage car, due to age, but let’s face it all cars break down.

Enter the craziest idea in the world: Night Rally.

Over the last year I have been getting exposed to the local rally world. It’s a practical alternative to track driving a sports car because you can do it all year long. You can do it in any car with decent tires, making it cheap to get involved in.

Noahs944

The Loop Rally is a 650 km drive where the navigator and driver work tightly as a team to control the speed and accuracy of the car. Starting from the foothills of Alberta and into the mountains of British Columbia via the back roads.

September 24th was my first time attending & it was also a first for my buddy Jodie who volunteered to be navigator. We did what any practical team would do and hopped in a 1988 four cylinder Porsche and with little training we joined the others in the parking lot.

After our briefing and vehicle inspections, away we went, following the key instructions in the logbook.

Moments later the sun lowered itself beneath the horizon and all that was left were stars in the sky. Of course we can’t see the stars in the sky because we are in a snarly, delicious, wedge-shaped land-rocket with newly mounted rally lights and winter tires, and are too busy trying to figure out how to read the log book... and basically how not to get lost!

Poor Jodie jumped into this without any previous instruction, and much of that is my fault.

Like others I am sure, Jodie was sleep deprived. He had to rush over to my place straight from work and we didn’t have a lot of time to prepare. But essentially the lack of prep resulted in low score marks for our team on this event, but it didn’t discount any of the fun, the thrills, the adventure & the excitement.

Noahs944

Truly the course layout was SUPERBE. I absolutely loved the flowy trails, the mix of tarmac and dirt & gravel. The triple caution exposure of the cliffs and the hairpin turns, and not knowing if cars or people or large rocks are waiting for your demise - all factors in to a really exciting time!

Before attending this rally I didn’t get the appeal. WHY? Why needlessly exposure yourself to additional dangers & really, isn’t it better driving when you can see?

What I realized is with very good lights you can see just fine and what you can’t see, like I say adds to the mystery, the excitement. Additionally there is the bonus of far less people on the roads at 3 in the morning and that opens up the gates for heavier use of the gas pedal.

Thank you to the volunteers & organizers and sponsor of this event.

The Loop Rally is a blast!

DasSilberWedge

So cool man.. One of those events you'll remember forever. I'm wanna try and get out to one of our local rallies this year (Merritt?) just to watch.

Noahs944

From what I hear, they (rallies) are always looking for volunteers, and apparently you usually get some of the best seats in the house for viewing when you volunteer & often the stage rally drivers will take you on the loop with their cars on practise day.

Scott at Team Harco

Way to go, Noah!

Night rallies are among the most challenging and rewarding as a competitor. We just took part in the 68th running of the Press On Regardless Rally (R). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press-on-Regardless_Rally

We covered about 500 miles of some of the best unpaved roads that Michigan's lower peninsula has to offer.

Having started in stage rally many years ago, this was a bit of a walk in the park for me. Those less experienced and less prepared were definitely challenged.

I am happy to report we did quite well (again) and Walter proved to be up to the task. This being the first true test, it was very rewarding to have all of the hard work, that went into the build, pay off.

If interested, I can post a few pictures of the vintage cars that competed. Not to hijack, but here are some of Walter and a few of the other cars near the front of the pack...

Noahs944

That's wicked Scott! Yes please post away!

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edit: hey I just noticed you got 1st place! CONGRATS.

btw-what's that thing that looks like a cable lock on the passenger side of the dash?

Noahs944

Scott,
I have a problem with the rear suspension bottoming out on the 944 when I hit bumps hard (I'm not jumping, but when I come in hot to a rough section, sometimes the rear suspension goes bang).
Currently running factory ride height but with a full tank of gas and 2 spares & lots of tools & junk.
I try to go minimal, but on a TSD, there's still considerable stuff to bring.
I thought it was the rear sway bar limiting travel, so I took it off.
The torsion bar is factory & the shocks are new (this year) Sachs.

-might you or someone else have a suggestion? I thought about raising the *** end a notch. Or perhaps the front & rear like Van did on his red chump car for rally.
*a nice BMW hit it's oil pan this weekend & dripped oil out & it was an expensive tow bill home, so this makes some good sense* but it's obviously a compromise for street/track.

I thought about swapping torsion bars to something stiffer. I thought about doubling up on shocks. I thought about replacing the rear shocks with 150 lb/inch coil overs to support the torsion bars but am worried that the coil overs might not have the necessary travel.

I'm unsure what the best thing to do is. I love the oem suspension most of the time for commuting & touring and most recreational dirt runs, and I won't complain about the front end, but on these loaded TSD events I always bottom out & that needs to be sorted out.

Noahs944

The other thing, though a minor thing... and I'm not really sure how much I can do to deal with this is (forgive me if I am not using the correct term): Torque Steer.

It was really scary with 25 year old shocks, and I was hoping it would improve with the lsd trans but it still exists.

If you watch 3:29 of this video with the lancia coming out of a corner, you can see the driver countering the torque steer. Is this something that will always exist or will stiffer rear springs help? Or does someone have a suggestion?

Scott at Team Harco

Torque steer is a problem with FWD applications whereby the front wheels want to "steer" in a different direction than the driver is expecting, due to the application of torque to the axle shafts. This is especially pronounced in high power vehicles and even more so when the axle shafts are not of equal length.

What you are describing, and the Lancia is exhibiting in the video is simply throttle induced oversteer. There are a couple of things that can be done.
1) don't apply so much throttle (not the best solution)
2) counter-steer to catch the rear end (most common solution)
3) reduce rear roll stiffness or increase front roll stiffness, or both. Stiffer rear springs will only increase this oversteer tendency. So, no that will not help.

I would suggest getting a good feeling for how the car behaves in these conditions and whether you are surprised by the rear stepping out, or if you can manage it with counter steer. One of the great joys of rallying a RWD car is that you can "pitch" the rear end and "catch" it with steering. Dialing this out will make for an understeering pig. And that is no fun at all. If you are surprised and the car feels jittery or unsettled, you may need to dial-out a little oversteer. Regardless, it's something you have to get a feel for and an understanding of what is happening.

Nice vid by the way. Jari-Matti Latvala is a great driver and that Audi is quite cool.
Edit: at the end of the video, #40, the Plymouth Valiant! What a pleasant surprise. My father took a team of Valiants to run the 1964 Monte Carlo Rallye. What a great reminder.

Scott at Team Harco

Noah -

You can do any of those things - but I would start will the simplest stuff first.
1) change the ride height at the rear by maybe 1/2". The rear trailing arms have some adjustability without needing to re-index the torsion bars.
2) look for more ways to move the extra stuff further forward. Can you fit tools and other heavy things on the floor behind the seats?
3) different rear shocks - Bilstein, for example, are gas-pressurized. They tend to be good in jounce and also rebound quickly. I am not familiar with the characteristics of Sachs units, so I can't say if they are good for this or not.

Anything else that you do may increase your rear roll stiffness (see the previous post). However, you can offset this by eliminating or going to a smaller rear anti-roll bar. It's all about tuning and then practicing to find the right compromise.

Scott at Team Harco

It's a map light for the navigator. Similar to this...


And the vintage cars that ran this year's POR.

Per vers

when driv on gravel/dirt. You have to "set up" the car before the corner.
You don't nessary need to use "Scandinavian flick". Just turn into the corner a little bit earlier, to change the balance of the car. It will make the "ready" for the corner.

The technique is easy to train on a open space. Doing figures of 8.

Regards Per

Scott at Team Harco

Yes. Setting up before the corner is vitally important.

That video has lots of good things to look at.

At 4:01 the Lancia is braking too late for the (second) turn. The rear got light and swung out too fast for the driver to catch. He also locked up the rear wheels which stalled the engine.

5:13 the Porsche driver does a good job of anticipating the turn and you can see he has already turned-in early to keep control through the lefthander. This looks like a different set of turns than the one that the Lancia had trouble with. But that turn seemed to have caught a number of drivers out. The drivers of the Mercedes and the red 911 looked to be a little off on anticipating the second turn.

The Escort at 6:00 is using the throttle to maintain the tail-out drift through the roundabout. Very small steering inputs and throttle changes kept it smooth.

The Volvo driver at 7:11 shows how not to do it. He got on the throttle too deeply and took traction off the front, producing a lot of understeer. He had to slow (or brake) drastically to keep from going into the barrier, which then induced snap-oversteer.

There's a lot of good stuff there. Most of the guys are using proper technique. You certainly expect that from a top WRC driver, and Latvala does not disappoint.

DasSilberWedge

Noah are you not planning on re-ducting the intake? My apologies, I don't remember which of the upper or lower slots in the middle of the front bumper is the intake for the engine or radiator.. My car originally was overheating due to a thermostat and a couple other problems when I first bought her but I actually noticed, albeit slight, improvement by modifying my license plate so it didn't block either of the intakes. Not sure if you have too or not with the lights being mounted off the front. Looks good though!