Sirayden

Hi all. Lots of great builds in the works from other guys on here! I'd love to have many of their skills, equipment and facilities. There has been general talk of the pros/cons of which engine to replace the stock 944 engine but I'm hoping to get a thread going which will cover what's needed to install a supercharged 3800 L67 engine rather than a debate on why, if you please.
Primary factors in choosing this engine are cost, aftermarket support and better room in the engine bay to work on it, add a turbo, etc. I saw some general info on 944hybrids but let's get a parts list going for anyone else who wants to do this build in the future, too. I work full-time so won't be completing this in a few weeks and this will be, generally, a budget-minded build. If anyone has built a 3800-powered 944, please chime in! I'll edit this list as new info is obtained.

Basic info I've gathered so far and parts needed (please advise of errors and give suggestions):
Installing in an 87 944:
-Prefer to keep power steering, if practical.
-Replacing stock brake booster with a hydroboost setup
-Supercharged, possibly twincharged. Already have a TA49 turbo I can use, if needed.
-Aiming for acceleration/torque rather than high revving, though that thinking may change later.lol
-Keep A/C lines installed for possible connection in the future
-

Engine:
-L67 from a 97 Grand Prix GTP (externally balanced)
-Heads from an 01 L67 Park Ave Ultra due to reports of possible casting flaws in the 97-98? heads (wish I knew this before I got the 97 GTP parts car...lol)


Wiring:
-Need new harness for 98-99 Monte Carlo Z34 due to reportedly easier wiring (plus the 97 harness/pcm has older design that's inferior to 98+ pcm). Mated to existing 944 harness at firewall...specific wires unknown.


External Engine Parts:
Bellhousing:
-From 88 2.8L Camaro bellhousing with dual starter pockets (starter is on driver side on L67 and on pass side on Camaro). Other possible options include a 94-95 S10 2.2L bellhousing
-12mmx1.75 bellhousing bolts
Flywheel:
-AMS Automotive 167533 Flywheel for 00 3800 Camaro ($64.64 from Amazon). Weld existing balance weight from stock flexplate onto same position on Camaro flywheel.
-5/16-18x1" bolts? Red loctite and lock washers due to reports of them backing out easily
Pressure plate:
-00 3800 Camaro
Clutch disk:
-69 Dodge Charger. Seems to be suitable if hard launches aren't made.
Slave cylinder:
-02 Corvette with modified fittings and extended bleed hose
Pilot bearing:
-Unknown. Apparently a bearing is required due to the drive shaft tip not being heat treated and may possibly fail if a bushing is used?
Motor mounts:
-80s Cutlass (vin 9) HO/Hurst/442/307?
Oil filter location/clearance:
-Stock GTP, Camaro or custom?
Oil pan:
-Spectra Premium GMP46A for 00 3800 Camaro ($56.65 from Amazon)
Oil pickup screen:
Melling 292S
Belts and tensioners:
-Depends on if alternator needs relocating, what power steering pump/pulley size is used to operate hydroboost, supercharger pulley size


Internal Engine Parts:
-Mild cam (approx 212 to 218 duration?, .540 is max lift when using modded retainers, upgraded springs and viton valve seals), aimed at future twincharged or turbocharged set-up
-Single roller billet timing set to keep balance shaft and avoid timing cover mod/other mods and costs to fit double roller
-New timing chain tensioner
-Stock used lifters or possibly new LS7 lifters, depending on used ones' condition
-Found used Comp Cams light pushrods for $30
-Found used Comp Cams 105# valvesprings for $20
-Complete gasket set from ZZP
-ARP head studs, 6-point nuts (Intense $79.99)



Intake/Fueling/Ignition:
-Stock L67 lower intake, supercharger, maf/throttle body assembly
-Stock fuel rail?
-60lb injectors
-May need different MAP sensor if increasing boost?
-Bosch 044 fuel pump...run E85?
-Aeromotive 100 micron fuel filter
-Plug wires (Intense racing $
-NGK TR6IX plugs (Amazon $6.52 each)...maybe at .050
-Intense O2 sensor extension cable

Cooling:
-ACDelco 252-693 water pump ($30.19 from Amazon)
-Thermostat gasket (Intense $3.99)
-New OEM coolant reservoir (Ebay $125.61)

Exhaust:
-?..hopefully mod stock front header (not cast iron rear section) from 97 GTP. Maybe weld that onto Camaro header. Depends also if adding turbo.
-ARP header bolts (Intense $24.99)
-Two Exhaust donuts (Intense $9.99)
-HKS SSQV blow-off valve (Beware of imitation ones being sold everywhere...there's a write-up about spotting fakes somewhere online)


Problem areas:
-Supercharger throttle body/MAF will be towards firewall. Possibly use a "Cobra Elbow" or cut/grind rear of supercharger some to aid in clearance?
-Running out of money...lol
-If running turbo too, will need to relocate alternator, possibly coil
-If running turbo, will likely lose headlight motor. Rig other motor-drive or cable-operated mechanism or fixed headlight assembly
-


Additional expected costs:
-Pcm reprogramming: 60lb inj, cam, remove error codes,
-Case Relearn due to harmonic balancer removal (not needed if using 97 pcm due to knock module on pcm)...Solution:bought Aeroforce interceptor gauge for $160.00 which can do a case relearn
-Intake plumbing, exhaust pieces, clamps,
-Wideband gauge
-Turbo mounting bracket
-Items to replace due to age such as: clutch hose,
-Reusable rocker shaft bolts if removing rocker shaft


Before assembly:
-Open/smooth intake ports to match gasket holes
-Open/smooth supercharger ports
-Block off coolant ports to throttle body
-


Current status: Searching and gathering more parts. Cam selection is taking a while since there are opposite views on which cam profiles are best. I found a parts cleaner and ordered a new pump but getting the tank under sorted out. Not sure if I should clean parts in kerosene first to get grease off before using mineral spirits for a final residue-free wash. Looking for sources to get mineral spirits...probably Zoro when they post a good coupon code for them on other sites. Need to build headers, tack-weld them, test fit in engine compartment and then get fully welded by someone who knows what they're doing.lol

Update 5/7/15: I found a used Stattama upper intake which mounts in place of the supercharger so I'll be going turbo-only. Lots less weight than twin-charged and more room on top of the engine which I'll likely need to put the coil packs behind the intake. Also, less hassle with not needing to run supercharger belt/pulleys/tensioners. Still gathering parts...

Update 6/14/15: Found many more parts and almost ready to assemble the engine. It's hot now so good weather for painting. Cam choice is taking a looooong time. Picked up a Stattama ST5 which will put the powerband higher. Turbo lag is a concern but seeing how this is a torquey engine and I have a low geared 944S transaxle may help. May have to change driving style to use this cam and twincharging is still an option to reduce lag...still researching.

odonnell

xschop posted about a 3800 swap once... he could probably answer a lot of questions. Heard nothing but good things about his products and work. I'm guessing he'll stumble across this thread at some point. The 944hybrids forum is probably your best bet to find info, but it's definitely a cool build.

Are you doing a full driveline swap? Most swaps seem to use the 944 torque tube and a 951 or better transaxle at the rear. People have done C5 driveline swaps but it requires more modification. If you went with keeping it OEM behind the engine, you need to have a way to adapt the torque tube to the bellhousing. There are also other considerations like oil pan, mounts, headers, etc. But it sounds like you already know more about this motor than most people who will read this.

drive135mph

I love where this project is going!

Sirayden

Sausagehacker: Thanks for the info...xschop has some mad fabricating skills! The moderator on 944hybrids appears to be doing 3800 swaps himself and doesn't want to divulge specific info on what parts are used. Understandable, actually, since I'm sure he's invested lots of time and money to find out what works and what doesn't. I respect his position on that. Thanks for reminding me...I forgot to list the oil pan (00 3800 Camaro) so I'll be adding it to the list, too (and water pump, etc). I'll be using the stock 944 transaxle and torque tube so we'll see how it holds up. A C5 6-speed transaxle would be cool!

Drive135mph: Yeah, let's get this build thread going and make it easier on whoever wants to do it in the future.

Uh oh...time to head back to the ol' salt mines to fund this build.

xschop

Yeah, Im in shop today doing some Pcar mods. I researched this swap and the key is the removable bell housing from an S10 4cyl with auto trans... I posted the info somewhere long ago.That BH will make the torque tube adapter easier to design and machine.

xschop

The one on right is what you need....

V2Rocket

I am thinking about a Northstar again as a possibility, I might be able to get it past the smog police (issue is transmission choice and error codes)

But that BH needs a slight modification to fit the N*

Sirayden

Thanks for the bellhousing info and pictures, xschop. I see what you mean about that S10 bellhousing being good for mounting an adapter. I've heard about the smog laws in CA, V2Rocket_aka944, so good luck with that. There's always a way!

marc abrams

V2, the Northstar engine has got to be the one of the worst engines General Motors has ever made besides the Oldsmobile diesel. You be lucky to go around the block without it blowing up. Not that I'm planing a engine swap, but if I was, I would think about the 2.4 Ecotec (LE5). Not a power house, but it won't tear the N/A transmission apart and it's as tough as nails. Has very good low end torque and pulls right up to 6500 RPM's thanks to the variable valve timing. The 2.4 Ecotec was also used in manual transmission cars too.

marc abrams

And for you turbo guys there's a 2.0 Ecotec with 205HP (supercharge) and 260HP (turbocharge). All stock, from manual transmission cars too for you left coast guy's.

V2Rocket

If you take care of the head stud problem the north star is as reliable as any LS motor.
They got a bad reputation for an easy fix.N* head bolts/headgaskets are like the 944 rod bearings, an easily fixed design flaw in an otherwise solid engine.

marc abrams

I have to respectfully disagree. But I wish you the best of luck if you go ahead with the Northstar engine swap.

drive135mph

I owned a caddy north star in a deville, the beast lived 200k and change with no issues. I sold her running strong. More than that I had quite few customers own north stars and never had issues beyond the usual. I wouldn't count the north star out for reliability reasons but it is a wide engine, I'm not sure it would clear the MC let alone the brake booster. The other worry I would have would be the pan, they were mostly FWD engines and fabricating an oil pan for that thing would be interesting since the pan acts as a block girdle.

I'd be curious to see how this project comes out I have to say i like the idea of a 60 degree six over the V8 but keep us posted