944 - VW Swap
07-07-2015, 01:11 AM
#91
Rennlist Member
Hence why my project(s) is a very long term one.
07-07-2015, 01:38 AM
#92
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
children...
why not just buy a B5 passat/audi longitudinal transmission case and machine it down to what you need?
it's already pointing the right way
i measured one at the bone yard once, it'd be super cool to fit the 1.8 motor up front and then the passat trans in the back of the 944 using the 944 tube...esp. the 5-speed autobox. dimensions are almost identical.
why not just buy a B5 passat/audi longitudinal transmission case and machine it down to what you need?
it's already pointing the right way
i measured one at the bone yard once, it'd be super cool to fit the 1.8 motor up front and then the passat trans in the back of the 944 using the 944 tube...esp. the 5-speed autobox. dimensions are almost identical.
07-07-2015, 04:30 AM
#93
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Why a B5 transmission case? One would need the bellhousing from the transmission which mates with the engine they want, and then modify it to mate to the torque tube, while also having the starter and slave cylinders fit / work. In my own case, an 02A for a vr6, then maybe someday a 5-cyl like alex if the vr6 works.
I already have the vr6, 02A, 944 bellhousings, etc. I could tig weld a one-off bellhousing but it would be way better to have reproducibility (CNC). Also, it would work for a variety of VW engines put into a 944.
I already have the vr6, 02A, 944 bellhousings, etc. I could tig weld a one-off bellhousing but it would be way better to have reproducibility (CNC). Also, it would work for a variety of VW engines put into a 944.
07-07-2015, 12:40 PM
#94
Rennlist Member
Are you using the 12 or 24 valve VR6 engine? I considered one of these prior to doing the rebuild on my 2.5 engine..I understand that a 12 valve with a blower is a hot ticket..
07-07-2015, 02:48 PM
#95
Rennlist Member
children...
why not just buy a B5 passat/audi longitudinal transmission case and machine it down to what you need?
it's already pointing the right way
i measured one at the bone yard once, it'd be super cool to fit the 1.8 motor up front and then the passat trans in the back of the 944 using the 944 tube...esp. the 5-speed autobox. dimensions are almost identical.
why not just buy a B5 passat/audi longitudinal transmission case and machine it down to what you need?
it's already pointing the right way
i measured one at the bone yard once, it'd be super cool to fit the 1.8 motor up front and then the passat trans in the back of the 944 using the 944 tube...esp. the 5-speed autobox. dimensions are almost identical.
07-07-2015, 03:09 PM
#96
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
07-07-2015, 04:09 PM
#97
Advanced
07-07-2015, 09:14 PM
#98
Rennlist Member
Ultimate solution...R35 GTR transaxle with standalone controller
They can be found for $5-7k (or $11k new).
07-07-2015, 11:00 PM
#99
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
my idea really was more about the 5HP19 automatic, it'd be cool to have a 5-spd auto 944.
but itd be good to have at least another option of transaxle when the 944 parts start to run out.
or 986/987 ...stick or PDK...
but itd be good to have at least another option of transaxle when the 944 parts start to run out.
...stick or PDK...
07-07-2015, 11:22 PM
#100
Advanced
Plenty of people have run the 951/S2 016's (or even better, the AOR/AOT with hardened 1/2/input shaft) with 500+whp with success (including torquey strokers and V8's). They are stronger than the usual Audi 016 (and 944 N/A box), and especially more than an 01A. Yes, the 968 01E is stronger still, but I wouldn't say it's a requirement for a VR.
You are probably right. My knowledge isn't first hand. Only comes from the research I have done while searching for an 800+ whp transaxle solution for my Audi TT build. From what I understand, the 016 has only a slightly better chance of survival than an o2a, which has a limit of right around 400 ft.lbs. of torque. It has been presented to me as an option that isn't worth spending the money on, when a slightly higher priced hardened o2e would be the lasting choice. I still won't settle for the 016 for my Audi build, but that is only my choice made from my research.
I would love to see a Vr swap done with one of these cars. I couldn't be happier with the way my VW 16vt is turning out.
07-08-2015, 12:11 AM
#101
Rennlist Member
You are probably right. My knowledge isn't first hand. Only comes from the research I have done while searching for an 800+ whp transaxle solution for my Audi TT build. From what I understand, the 016 has only a slightly better chance of survival than an o2a, which has a limit of right around 400 ft.lbs. of torque. It has been presented to me as an option that isn't worth spending the money on, when a slightly higher priced hardened o2e would be the lasting choice. I still won't settle for the 016 for my Audi build, but that is only my choice made from my research.
I would love to see a Vr swap done with one of these cars. I couldn't be happier with the way my VW 16vt is turning out.
I would love to see a Vr swap done with one of these cars. I couldn't be happier with the way my VW 16vt is turning out.
Looks like you're already pretty invested into your AAN, otherwise I'd suggest 07K.What trans is your TT using? Boxster 012? I'd think a FWD TDI 01E would be the best to get. I think the 01E is still generally referred to as stronger than the newer 01X, 0A2 options.
07-20-2015, 01:45 AM
#102
Rennlist Member
Figured this would be useful for you since the 1.8T is the same bellhousing pattern as the 07K. Looks like the 931 bellhousing won't work as it's mostly the old Audi I5 pattern which is different from the VW I4 (some Audi/VW transmissions like the 01E have both patterns; older trans do not).
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...l#post12442868
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...l#post12442868
Finally picked up a 931 bellhousing.
IMG_20150717_210930296 by Vex Art, on Flickr
Sadly, it looks like the 931 bellhousing, despite being used on an Audi I4 has the I5 bellhousing pattern (along with sharing the lower 2 944 bellhousing botls). This doesn't really help since the 07K uses the VW I4 pattern. They only have 1 bolt in common.
931 pattern bolts up perfectly to the 'vintage' I5.
IMG_20150718_200259661 by Vex Art, on Flickr
01E bellhousing (modified to fit 07K; two bolt holes at the top need trimmed off) on top of the 944 bellhousing. Red are the VW I4/07K bolts, black are the vintage I5 bolts. The lower 944 bellhousing bolts share the vintage I5 bolts. A large portion of the upper 944 bellhousing would need to be removed. Two of the 07K bolts could possibly be added to the 944 bellhousing by drilling holes and/or adding welding on a small amount of material to the bellhousing.
IMG_20150718_231906658 by Vex Art, on Flickr
The 01E bellhousing template mounted on the 07K engine. The red shows the 07K bolts, and yellow shows the 931/I5 bolts. Only one bolt is shared.
IMG_20150718_205425310 by Vex Art, on Flickr
I think it would be possible to add at least two more shared bolts to the 931 bellhousing pretty easily. The 07K red hole could easily be drilled, there is a nice flat spot on the bellhousing for it.
IMG_20150718_231546048 by Vex Art, on Flickr
The other one would require a small tab to be welded to the 931 bellhousing. This would give 3 matching bolts. I'd want to find at least one more.
IMG_20150718_231558430 by Vex Art, on Flickr
One ear on the 931 bellhousing would need to be removed (much like the 01E) to clear the 07K timing chain cover. But not nearly as much material as the 944 bellhousing would need.
I'm going to order an OEM 01E spacer to help do some more planning. I think both the 944 and 931 bellhousing would take the same amount of work to make work with the 07K. The 944 would require a lot more trimming and then welding to 're-enclose' the bellhousing. The 931 would require slight modifications and no welding to 're-enclose'. An adapter plate might be the best route and would probably work better with the 931 bellhousing. I need to get an 07K clutch/flywheel so I can figure out stack heights and see if I can even run a spacer/adapter plate.
Progress will continue to be slow, the 968 is at the bottom of the list of many projects...
IMG_20150717_210930296 by Vex Art, on FlickrSadly, it looks like the 931 bellhousing, despite being used on an Audi I4 has the I5 bellhousing pattern (along with sharing the lower 2 944 bellhousing botls). This doesn't really help since the 07K uses the VW I4 pattern. They only have 1 bolt in common.
931 pattern bolts up perfectly to the 'vintage' I5.
IMG_20150718_200259661 by Vex Art, on Flickr01E bellhousing (modified to fit 07K; two bolt holes at the top need trimmed off) on top of the 944 bellhousing. Red are the VW I4/07K bolts, black are the vintage I5 bolts. The lower 944 bellhousing bolts share the vintage I5 bolts. A large portion of the upper 944 bellhousing would need to be removed. Two of the 07K bolts could possibly be added to the 944 bellhousing by drilling holes and/or adding welding on a small amount of material to the bellhousing.
IMG_20150718_231906658 by Vex Art, on FlickrThe 01E bellhousing template mounted on the 07K engine. The red shows the 07K bolts, and yellow shows the 931/I5 bolts. Only one bolt is shared.
IMG_20150718_205425310 by Vex Art, on FlickrI think it would be possible to add at least two more shared bolts to the 931 bellhousing pretty easily. The 07K red hole could easily be drilled, there is a nice flat spot on the bellhousing for it.
IMG_20150718_231546048 by Vex Art, on FlickrThe other one would require a small tab to be welded to the 931 bellhousing. This would give 3 matching bolts. I'd want to find at least one more.
IMG_20150718_231558430 by Vex Art, on FlickrOne ear on the 931 bellhousing would need to be removed (much like the 01E) to clear the 07K timing chain cover. But not nearly as much material as the 944 bellhousing would need.
I'm going to order an OEM 01E spacer to help do some more planning. I think both the 944 and 931 bellhousing would take the same amount of work to make work with the 07K. The 944 would require a lot more trimming and then welding to 're-enclose' the bellhousing. The 931 would require slight modifications and no welding to 're-enclose'. An adapter plate might be the best route and would probably work better with the 931 bellhousing. I need to get an 07K clutch/flywheel so I can figure out stack heights and see if I can even run a spacer/adapter plate.
Progress will continue to be slow, the 968 is at the bottom of the list of many projects...
Broke out my 3D scanner for the first time in a long time and scanned the rear of my 07K. Then built a crude model of an 012 bellhousing (since that's what I had a drawing for and it's basically an 01E).
You can see here why the 01E has to be modified to fit the timing cover and you can see bolt holes that line up (marked in red). I missed some holes on my wood mockup since some of them you can't practically fit a drill bit through the backside.
07K_Interference by Vex Art, on Flickr
Next step is to order an 01E spacer. I'm going to mock it up and see if it could be welded to a modified 944 bellhousing to be used as an adapter.
You can see here why the 01E has to be modified to fit the timing cover and you can see bolt holes that line up (marked in red). I missed some holes on my wood mockup since some of them you can't practically fit a drill bit through the backside.
07K_Interference by Vex Art, on FlickrNext step is to order an 01E spacer. I'm going to mock it up and see if it could be welded to a modified 944 bellhousing to be used as an adapter.
07-29-2015, 09:28 AM
#103
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Cool idea Alex - to use the spacer as a potential adapter. The trick is holding it square so you don't end up with English on the tip of the drive shaft that goes into the crank snout. You could weld it up and if you're close then have it machined back true/parallel to the flange that bolts to the torque tube.
I'm moving foward with the Audi bell housing from a quattro B5. We have a plan of attack to finish it up and I'll share here eventually. Sorry for delay on this ... the 911 has been suckling from deep in my play funds again.
I'm moving foward with the Audi bell housing from a quattro B5. We have a plan of attack to finish it up and I'll share here eventually. Sorry for delay on this ... the 911 has been suckling from deep in my play funds again.
07-29-2015, 02:16 PM
#104
Rennlist Member
I've strayed from that idea since the spacer only has I5 patterns in it (I didn't pay enough attention before buying it). That and it has pretty questionable metallurgical properties so I don't want to depend on it for any strength.
My latest idea is to actually use the 944 bellhousing. One hole lines up and another just needs to be tapped (the red hole in the picture).
Then, I think you could use these bosses on the bottom side of the bellhousing to attach a billet adapter to pick up a few more holes.
Gotta do some more CAD work...
My latest idea is to actually use the 944 bellhousing. One hole lines up and another just needs to be tapped (the red hole in the picture).
Then, I think you could use these bosses on the bottom side of the bellhousing to attach a billet adapter to pick up a few more holes.
Gotta do some more CAD work...
07-29-2015, 02:18 PM
#105
Rennlist Member
Interested to see what you do with the B5 bellhousing. I've got a spare 01E torn apart that I was planning on using for parts to convert a 5spd to 6spd, so I'll have a spare bellhousing I can hack up too.