Thaddeus

Since Tabor, who has lost my respect irrevocably, asked how the United States will be changed by yesterday's horror, I thought I would mention a few. In this post I refer to societal changes only, I will not speak to the unutterable grief that the families of the dead are experiencing now. I do not have the words for that.

(1) Our society will become more security conscious. There will be some curtailment of the civil liberties we have enjoyed. I acknowledge the necessity, but I will never forgive the perpetrators of the act for the necessity. I suspect we will look back on the days before the attack as a golden age that is now over.

(2) Our economy has been damaged. It will take years to heal. The people who will suffer the most from this will be the people who were most disadvantaged economically in the first place. And this harm will affect not only people in the US but globally. Like it or not, the economy is global, and everyone will be hurt by this. The already-poor will be hurt most of all.

(3) The society will become more militaristic. Again, a necessity, but a sad one. The day will come, someday, when the human race has no need for armies and nation-states, but that day has been postponed for centuries.

(4) Many more lives are going to be lost. We will find the people who are responsible, and we will make them pay. And we must make them pay; the Calculus of survival now demands it. But more innocents will die in the process.

(5) Our culture will change because our hearts will change. I am a changed man. Never before yesterday have I wanted to kill another human being. I would kill those responsible now. My moral underpinnings have been altered forever, and this is true of many people I know. And this will change the United States, and the world.

Bitter medicine, all of it.

God Almighty, I am sad.

Thaddeus

Michael Stephenson

Firefighters raise a flag infront of the rubble of what used to be the World Trade Center. (AP Photo)

We will endure.

Tom R.

Thaddeus,

Remember when you were 18 or 19, it was a clear summer day just like yesterday was here in NY, and news came in that U.S. helicopters crashing in Iran? Most of the posters to this board were either in diapers or a twinkle in their parents eyes.

That was the closest I came to be drafted (or Canadian) and the draft was eliminated a year before.

Our fellow posters were watching rugrats when Iraq was invaded, and CNN presented it to us like a video game. Most of America watched a war while sitting on a LaZBoy with a bag of doritos.

You probably grew up the same as me, with the Vietnam conflict (not war remember, conflict) played in the background in black & white every night during dinner.

Iraq, Vietnam, and what I saw and felt (heat from explosion) yesterday were surreal.

Bringing back the draft when the mission in Iran failed failed was real.

My point being even though I was right near ground zero yesterday, and witnessed a flash that killed hundreds (maybe thousands) in seconds didn't affect me (at that time). Possibly being drafted did. The younger posters never had that fear, and hopefully (but now maybe not) never will.

Matt O.

Thanks for the post Thaddeus. And the picture Michael. And Tom, you are right. I've never had the fear of being drafted. I did have the fear of watching the Gulf War while my dad was there, not really a video game to me. IMHO I think there should be a draft. A few years of service for America's youth can only do them good.

Bob S. 1984 Silver

Excellent post, Thaddius. Yes; pray for both the victims and their families to which parents will never return.

Michael, the photo reminds one of a similiar picture taken on a lonely island during WWII. It should stand as a symbol of our resolve and spirit.

After reading what our immature friend Tabor started, he would be a great poster child for reinstituting the draft. I served; I volunteered (as opposed to waiting to be drafted), but I do not regret it. I came back ready to attend college and study, make something of myself and become a better citizen. The rights of others became more important to me, and the fragility of freedom became very apparent. The military taught me self reliance, something that many of the young do not know; many still live with mommy and daddy, even into their twenties (and thirties), depend on them for financial support, and Mommy and Daddy buy into this, pushing the age of maturity further and further into the individual's future.

If not the military, perhaps some of you could choose a career as a police officer, firefighter, or emergency medical technician. But, that would take backbone, wouldn't it? Many of the above died in the collapse of the buildings, you fools. Families without a parent; a loss that will never be overcome. Their courage and self sacrifice of those heroes cannot be measured in human language.

Thaddius, I, as a financial consultant, know you have the effects of yesterday dead on. In addition, it is necessary to say re: criticism by some US citizens and also Canadians; each one of our countries once belonged to someone else. Canada was (and is still closely tied to) Great Britian. They also depend on their big brother to the South to protect them. We broke away from Britian. I think my point is made. I have friends in Canada (heck, when I lived in upstate NY CFMX was my favorite radio station). Most appreciate the fact that the two countries have more in common than many would think. Had the attack been on the City of Toronto, who would have been there with massive help? Is there any doubt? There will always be the "experts" (we used to call them Monday Morning Quarterbacks) that are totally ignorant of the facts but have made up their minds that the fault lies with the US. So be it. There are idiots in every generation.

Every generation also has its despots. There were those in the US in the 30s that urged the government to keep out of Europe's problems. How many millions died because a madman was in power for 13 years and caused the destruction of millions of lives, both military and civilian. And the Aussies? Who protected them from the Japanese military in World War II? Without the US they would have become a satellite of the Rising Sun. We were welcome then, we're the bad guys now? In both Germany and Japan, millions of citizens blindly followed their leaders, even to the point of piloting suicide planes (yes, Germany had them too). How did they differ from the followers of the madmen in the middle east? Most of you who have posted as detractors must have slept during World History. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

I was up until 3:00 this morning, unable to sleep, angry, sad, wanting to do something, able to do nothing. I am retired. I am old enough to remember other instances of terror in the world. Wake up, youngsters. Your turn is next. God help you.

Pray for the free world if the comments of some of the posters is widespread.

Pray for the surviving family members of the victims as well. The victims have, I am sure, been welcomed by a loving God; their trial is over.

Perhaps some of the dissidents will volunteer to sell their 944s and donate the proceeds to a relief fund. Heck, it's only Mommy and Daddy's money anyway in many cases.

Bob S. (mad as hell at the stupidity of some people)

john#6

Keep in mind that Tabor's 18 years old....

Bob S. 1984 Silver

John; I have tried to keep Tabor's age in mind. When I was his physical age I was in the military. When I was his emotional age I was in Junior High...

Bob S. (tired of excuses to protect immature people)

Tabor

Bob S. which of my opinions are you so against? Do you dislike my belief that all human life is equal? I never stated the price for human life; I merely tried to put the loss of these human lives in perspective.

As for me being 18, I wouldn't want anybody to give me any special treatment for that. As for selling my Porsche and donating the proceeds, I am in the 31% federal tax bracket, I feel confident that enough of my money will go to help the situation.

jim968

I _do_ hope y'all will excuse me if I say that I find it mildly hilarious and more than a touch ironic that some of our self-proclaimed defenders of freedom and free speech, and supporters of maturity, can't seem to disagree with Tabor without resulting to insults, name calling, and ad hominem attacks. (If the shoe fits, quit wiggling yer dam' toes.)

And yes, I'm a vet, of a real shooting "conflict." Not that the fact has anything at all to do with my reasoning ability or the validity, or lack thereof, of my opinions.

Jim, gone for his Nomex skivvies...

trebor_quitman

I am 25 years old, although I believe this may remove me from the age bracket of the draft.? I may enlist if this situation does turn to all out war. My grandfather died before I was old enough to speak. I know very little of him and what he did in the Pacific. I know He served in WWII at the age of 17, Before he was even legal I think. He enlisted out of sence of duty, and although I'm scared, I feel I must step in line. This may be the only chance I get to know alittle bit of who he was, and feel worthy of what I took for granted, freedom. When my dad was a boy he asked my grampa what he did, he said he served on a PT boat that saw no action. Later I met a man that served on the same ship and said he knew him. "no action" was hardly the case. I was told about some of the landings on islands that were to late. Women and children layed out on the beach by the japs. I'm not racist, but the rage within me after yesterday has formed some new thoughts within my head. I feel that these people need to be introduced to our little freind the atom. I don't feel they deserve the honor of a ground war. But if the country my grandpa fought for needs another man, I guess I'll have to become one.

Bob (who's car really doesn't matter anymore)

john#6

Quote:
I wouldn't want anybody to give me any special treatment

Wasn't suggesting such - just wondering if I would feel secure with people with such disregard for human life and liberty protecting our country -- Bob S. is right saying that discipline might do some people a lot of good

Brent 89 - GT

Well Jim, I think the insults stem from frustration. That does not make it right, but in this instance I think some frustration is acceptable. Put on your thick skin if you intend to run against the grain.

Tabor, I don't think the intention is to say one human life is any more or less important than the next. Sudden loss of life is tragic regardless of the cause. The point that is trying to be made is that this incident reaches beyond just loss of life. We are talking about a very deliberate killing spree, not an accident.

There was a serious breech of our accepted comfort level in this country yesterday. This is something none of us with a shred of intelligence wants to see continue. You have to realize that this country is one of very few places on Earth where you can wake up every day and expect it to be as peacful as the last. Our elders are merely trying to impress upon you that this freedom is NOT to be taken for granted. Many thousands have died to protect it for you and I. I think they deserve immense respect for this. Playing devils advocate on this one has ceased to be even remotely humorous.

I suspect you know all of this already, you do not skike me as the fool others have accused you of being. That said you must realize that this is a very grave situation. Our President has great resolve to avenge this atrocity, regardless of how low key his approach. This could easily escalate into a full blown war. The frightening fact is that the first move was made on our soil, this must concern you, it scares the hell out of me.

I implore you to acknowledge the scope of this event. It was much more than an attack on innocent people, it was an attack on the system that provides your freedom and success, your basic right to own a Porsche if you will.

I don't think calling you names will help to sway you or change what has happened. I would however find it rather despicable if you refused to acknowledge the severity of this indescretion. People murdered by any means should be avenged, this instance is no exception, it requires a swift and firm response. This ain't no car accident!

cale

To address the issues of rage, what will more violence prove? Especially if it is mindless and misdirected. We will only prove to our detractors that we are exactly the worldwide bully that they see us as.
I am not advocating crawling back into a corner and licking our wounds. Right now our main concern should be the safety of all citizens. I lived in NYC, and DC. I have been experiencing severe feelings of deja voux the past 32 hours. I worked 2 blocks away from the WTC. I got off the subway there everyday at about 8am. I work in DC now and the images are haunting. Our efforts need to be directed towards saving life at this point, not destroying it.
A war will do NOTHING but kill more innocent people, whether they be military or civilian. I believe the best response is a measured military response. I do believe the country harboring the terrorists should be held responsible, but declaring a war just so that we can feel better because we and our friends beat someone up after they gave us one hell of a bloody nose.
Violence will bring only more violence, it will escalate the situation and make the next terrorist attack on us all that more violent.
Our true national character has been tested, and as the long lines of people donating blood, the thousands of rescue and medical personel flooding into NYC and DC will show we are responding as Americans selflessly to those in need. We need to handle this maturely and take our time to calm down because an angry response will probably not be the appropriate one.

Jeff

Manning

I don't know if this article is BS or not (like that phoney Chief Seattle thing you see) but it is a good read anyway:

Subject: The United States... a fantastic article from Canadian News


THE UNITED STATES

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -! not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

Tabor

Brent, I thank you for your respectful comments. At no time did I intend to play devils advocate, especially not for some type of humor. I remained completely honest thought this entire incident.

At the time of my first posting, I honestly did not believe that it would significantly impact our country. Now, I do not know. I sincerely hope that no more lives will have to be lost to resolve this. I never said, nor meant to imply that the people who executed this terrible act should not be hunted down and punished.

To my knowledge this was not an attack by a country, but a "private" terrorist group. For this reason I doubt that these events will lead to war. I admit it was an attack on the US. But the US is big, and I have seen nothing that suggests the people who attacked us have the power to take us down.

Edited - As far as you saying "I implore you to acknowledge the scope of this event." I agree that the scope of the tragedy is great, but I am not convinced that it will have long-term repercussions. But, now I really don't know. You guys (who I have respect for) seem to think it will.