Brent 89 - GT

Jeff,

Sorry, have to vehemently disagree with you buddy. Trying to be the "bigger man" and "turn the other cheek" will only invite more death on our shores. The United States of America needs to send a very clear message. This situation needs to made a graphic example of. We are dealing with small violent factions here. We need to seriously discourage this type of behavior. I think that means making it VERY un-attractive to be even remotely associated with this type of group. I think the unfortunate reality is that violence sends this message. Measured military intervention is exactly the mistake that allows the likes of Sadaam to continue to freely roam the Earth. He remains a threat, possibly even in this instance. How would you feel if it was Sadaam who perpetrated this act? Would you still advocate the Mr. Nice Guy response when he rightfully should have been dealt with years ago?

We may be accused of being Bullies, so be it. We also are the caretakers of the entire Earth as pointed out in a previous post. Sometimes in order to maintain the caretaker status we must flex some muscle.

Mike S

I am fairly young (25yrs) and I have to say that it appears that my generation and the ones younger than me seem to show a serious lack of patriotism towards this country. Maybe it was my upbringing, maybe not...but this is the best damn country in the world. We are at war...we will unfortunately be changed forever, and I hope that all of us, especially people around my age bracket can rally behind this country and defend it til the bitter end.

I apologize for the post, but there have been some seriously senseless posts regarding this subject and the lack of compassion by some people is disturbing at best.

Bob S. 1984 Silver

Hmmm...the 31% tax bracket at age 18.

Kinda says it all.........

Brent 89 - GT

Come on Bob, thats a cheap shot. I don't think you know Tabor any better than I. The fact that he makes some dough does not have any relavance to this. I must be a bad guy too, I am 33 and am in the top bracket, 39.6%. What does that have to do with it?

Tabor

It isn't my fault that I have marketable skills. Since I am a contractor and have 0% job security, I get a premium for that as well. If it wasn't for my overtime I would only be in the 28% braket. But software companies like to work their employees 60 hours a week.

Are you going to answer my original question to you?

Tom R.

Here is a reality check guys;

My dad left a message on my machine that went something like :Ed's wife's office was on the 105th floor. She was on the phone and told her husband she was surrounded by fire...then the phone went dead.

I saw the explosion from the street. Ed was an elected trustee in my village, and his wife was a prosecutor in the local court. I knew both of them.

Tonight I'm the judge, and before I start court, I have to give a quick eulogie.

Then I get to hear people complain about speeding tickets.

Hey Tabor, how bout helping me with the eulogie?

Bob S. 1984 Silver

Jim..I won't flame you. I agree that name calling really does not result in a positive result. I have not resorted to name calling, but I do believe that the word "fool" is applicable when a person does not understand the seriousness of a situation or is too stubborn to admit they may be in error. Tabor has a right to say whatever he pleases. But, in doing so, he must also accept the fact that he may just tick off a number of people that will not agree with him. Free speech works both ways. You were in a war zone. You know, as few do, what it is like. In a way, I am trying to protect young folks from ever having to experience this. It is, as I tried to emphasize in my post, apathy that leads to subjugation.

Tabor: Where do I disagree with you? Your seemingly callous attitude toward life. I agree that all life has value. Where does one person or group get the right to take life from others? A person who loses their life by violent action of others is different than one that dies surrounded by family members in a peaceful surrounding. My post was meant to be a history lesson; a precautionary bit of information. I can forgive ignorance; it is a condition that can be cured by education and insight. You have made yourself a lightning rod. I had nothing to do with that. You did it by yourself. I think you could have headed it all off with an initial response of "Oops..I didn't know what Craig was talking about>" However, you chose to defend your initial position. You can do that, and I defend your right to do so. However, I do not have to agree with your position. I sense an individual who has not been visited by personal tragedy; and I pray you never are. However, that being said, experience in living might be an option. I am serious about urging that you volunteer your time in the local fire department or some other organization that deals with trying to overcome human tragedy. Our world will change now, my young friend; Thaddeus is correct in his analysis. It is the change that worries me the most. Try putting a frog into a hot pan of water; it will fight you and try to escape. But, you can put a frog in cold water and heat the pan slowly. The frog will stay there and allow itself to be cooked. Slow change is insiduous...sometimes we don't even know it is happening.

That being said, I think this has gone about far enough. I'm signing off from Rennlist for awhile.

Bob S. (still saddened by those who do not understand the lessons history has to offer)

Matt O.

Amen Mike. I'm with ya buddy. This is an excerpt from an email I sent by girlfriend who is attending FSU. The sad part is she took it as though I was "criticizing" college students (I am one for crying outloud).

-Matt

deni durrell

some of the comments that tabor made seem to indicate that to some of you that he doesn't care. I feel that the insults that followed only show a real lack of intellect and a tendancy to confront the issues by showing disrespect, rather than true discussion to better understand each other's point of view. It is also tiring to hear a.) of people assuming that mom and dad afforded the toys (insecurity of age showing?) and b.) that one's tax bracket is an excuse to show disgust - this is really quite *base*. Nonetheless, I know most of you have all been touched by this and are angry and frustrated that so many people died, especially in this senseless way.

- deni, 31 (consultant, getting paid for what i know, not for how many years as a slave)

Coleco

I agree with both of you, Mike and Matt. I am also 25 years old and have been in the USArmy for 8 years now(joined end of sophomore yr) as a MFT, Combat Medic(91B), Field Nurse(91C), and an RN in the civilian world. My brother who is 24 has been in the USAF for 6 years now. We must have good blood or something, because all are friends seem to lack the patriotism towards our country you spoke of. Maybe some good will come of this horrific ACT OF WAR, and people will grow up.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Red S2

As a Vietnam era individual who was lucky enough not to be drafted, calm your upsurge of somewhat misplaced patriotism. My son is just 18 and attending college. Univesal military service is not the answer.

I do not want my son killed defending food supplies from some Somali warlord or Bosnian, Serbian, or whatever terrorist.

The United States has no business determining what governments sovereign states employ. We further have no obligation to support any more Israeli, British, Palestinian, or any other raghead terrorism.

I do not want my money spent outside of this country.

I have dead and wounded cousins and friends from the Vietnam disaster. I do not want my son coming home that way from any peace action that some government lamebrain determines is the best interest of this country. I do not want him dead from some idiot Paki commaning a Somalia mission. I don't care a wit about a Bosnian, Serbian, Ma cedonian, or etc. internal slaughter. We have done nothing about slaughter of ethnic Moslems in the former USSR or the slaughter of Armenians by ethnic Moslems in the USSR.

We are in a religious war again just like Vietnam. This is a cultural conflict. I suggest we give the Afghani's an ultimatum: turn over Bin whoever within seven days or evacuate Kabul.

We drop food, water, tents, satellite TV, and radios sufficient for the population of Kabul in a ring fifty miles from the city. We continue to supply this ring for 1 year. We then use cruise missiles and pound the city flat if they do not turn over this terrorist and his brethern.

Futhermore, if the Taliban tries American missionaries for distributing religion with food, this is an act of war. We then demolish any state building standing.

There will be minimum civilian deaths and we strike a blow at a culture that discourages personal freedom.

Coleco

First off myself, Mike, or Matt never said universal military service is the answer. However could you define patriotism for me? When I was 18 I was in the Army willing to die for my country, not too many 18 year olds can say that, and that is a FACT. Out of all the students at my local high school I was 1 of 3 people that joined the military. The rest(not all) went to college on mom and dads dime. The greatest form of Patriotism, is willing to die for your country. I am not saying that this is the only form, but it is the greatest form.

Ask your son if he is willing to join the military and die for his country. The reason why a lot(again not all) of the people in our generation have no patriotism is because we have not had any significant event in our history to fuel patriotism. This is why I said maybe this horrific act of war will cause people to grow up.

My father didn't want me to join for the same reason you don't want your son to join. I bet if I asked your father he would most certainly not want to see you die either. If I had a son I would feel the same way.


I repeat there are many forms of patriotism. Like it or not those terrorist pilots had the greatest form of patriotism(this makes me sick just typing this ).

Red S2 I didn't mean to offend you or your son. I do still agree with Mike that a lot of our generation have very little patriotism. Your son may be a great patriot. I am just saying the majority are not, hopefully we can atleast turn this tragedy into a positive. I already saw signs of this when I saw a car today drive buy with a USA Flag on the antenna(form of patriotism). Would that kid have had that flag two days ago, probably not.

BTW Red S2 I gave you 5 stars because I do agree with everything you stated.

IceShark

Seeing as how I probably started this whole debate off by leveling Tabor, I'll give an update.

Everyone I know in 1WTC is missing (they were above the strike point). Smashed thin as paper. GodSpeed.

I must say, though, I really respect the guys (passengers) that got together in flight 93 and probably crashed it in PA rather than taking out more people. The reports of their cell phone conversations with family prior to doing it were something. They are true Heros, not like athletic bozos that these days are called heros.

Coleco

Stay strong.

David J. Harrington

Iceshark, keep the hope up. I read an account of a police officer that was pulled out recently with only a minor injury to his leg. He was on the 84th floor AS THE BUILDING COLLAPSED!!! and "rode" the building down. I would have thought that something like this would be impossible, but physics can be surprising in many ways. Yes, Godspeed.

Dave