Looking for all nine 1987 U.S. Turbo Cup cars
10-30-2005, 11:09 AM
#46
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There sure are a lot of great options there! A handful of them look like they got carried over to the 88S's and 89s. It is sad they didn't make more of these. Do you have a window sticker? What was the price vs. a normal 951?
10-30-2005, 12:37 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
I have a excerpt from the 1987 dealer handbook, it lists the option codes and the prices.
"Sports package for the 944S and 944 Turbo. This package includes stiffer spring settings, turbo brake system, adjustable rear axle stabilizer, firmer suspension arm bearings, 8" front and 9" rear wheels w/ 225/50 and 245/45 VR16 tires respectively, as well as measures to reduce the weight of the entire car."
M637 Performance Handling Package (944/944S) - $4752
(944Turbo) - $628.
It has a footnote that says the M637 option must be ordered with the M030 option which is another $674 for any model.
Not sure any of this pricing info is accurate, since only 2-4 944S Club Sports were imported and the above mentioned 9 Turbos - who knows what the dealers would have charged for these cars. It looks like most of them were sold directly from PMNA.
Paul, can you confirm?
Also, your list of specs includes close ratio 5th gear. This has always been somewhat of a mystery. I have heard that the Canadian Rothmans cars had a shorter 5th gear, but the Euro Turbo Cups did not (they had the standard gear box ratios). The previous owner of #103 swore that his transmission also had the standard ratios (it has since been swapped out with an S2 trans). Have you ever compared your car with another standard turbo (rpm in 5th at certain speeds). I would be very interested to know if the US cars did or did not actually have the short 5th gear - and what the ratio is if it is indeed shorter (could never get the answer out of the Canadian car owners that Ive spoken to).
For comparison, a standard turbo 5th gear is very close to 2300rpm at 60mph.
"Sports package for the 944S and 944 Turbo. This package includes stiffer spring settings, turbo brake system, adjustable rear axle stabilizer, firmer suspension arm bearings, 8" front and 9" rear wheels w/ 225/50 and 245/45 VR16 tires respectively, as well as measures to reduce the weight of the entire car."
M637 Performance Handling Package (944/944S) - $4752
(944Turbo) - $628.
It has a footnote that says the M637 option must be ordered with the M030 option which is another $674 for any model.
Not sure any of this pricing info is accurate, since only 2-4 944S Club Sports were imported and the above mentioned 9 Turbos - who knows what the dealers would have charged for these cars. It looks like most of them were sold directly from PMNA.
Paul, can you confirm?
Also, your list of specs includes close ratio 5th gear. This has always been somewhat of a mystery. I have heard that the Canadian Rothmans cars had a shorter 5th gear, but the Euro Turbo Cups did not (they had the standard gear box ratios). The previous owner of #103 swore that his transmission also had the standard ratios (it has since been swapped out with an S2 trans). Have you ever compared your car with another standard turbo (rpm in 5th at certain speeds). I would be very interested to know if the US cars did or did not actually have the short 5th gear - and what the ratio is if it is indeed shorter (could never get the answer out of the Canadian car owners that Ive spoken to).
For comparison, a standard turbo 5th gear is very close to 2300rpm at 60mph.
10-30-2005, 12:50 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Good questions. I've never checked my 5th gear. Are the tachs in the cars typically accurate? I can do that probably this week.
I think all the cars were sold directly by PMNA.
I'll dig up some other files and see what I can find, too. Maybe I'll order the history on the car from Porsche and see what options they think it has.
Maybe they did plan on selling more of the cars. There's actually a factory owner's manual addendum booklet (that matches the owners manual) covering the Cup features!
I think all the cars were sold directly by PMNA.
I'll dig up some other files and see what I can find, too. Maybe I'll order the history on the car from Porsche and see what options they think it has.
Maybe they did plan on selling more of the cars. There's actually a factory owner's manual addendum booklet (that matches the owners manual) covering the Cup features!
10-30-2005, 02:07 PM
#49
Originally Posted by 944Fest (aka Dan P)
I sort of doubt it, but anything is possible. I didn't know Rhen back in 87-88 when I knew of the car, but he has been around a long time. His car is a very early 86 Turbo that was made in to a race car, so we could have been talking about that. I'm not sure what conversation you are refering to. He has been instructing for many, many years and has seen a LOT of cars. Let's ask him next time we see him, which I hope is soon.
10-30-2005, 04:11 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Here is a link I found that shows some pictures and the final results from the '86 SCCA Escort Endurance Championship. I looked for '87 but cound not find anything.
There are 8 '86 944Turbos shown as finishing in the final SS category standings. They include a Carlsen car, two from Rick Hurst Racing, a Mathewson Racing, a Motorsports International, a Sewickley, a Fred Baker Racing, and a Ken Williams Racing.
Looks like some of them have the Cup car features (Manual Door Mirrors, and I could pick out the fiberglass hood corner latch pins on at least one picture), but at least one of them looks like its a converted street car (standard door mirrors). I recall hearing that there were 7 "Cups" imported in '86, but have no way of confirming that.
I saw the Sewickley car several years ago at a Putnam Park DE event, and it has a Rothmans paint job/sponship on it now, still is #73. I will try to post a pic of it. The Ken Williams car is the car that was found under a tree (the Al Holbert test car story...) and is now for sale as somewhat of a parts kit.
At least a couple of these teams bought the upgraded Club Sports/Turbo Cup (Escort) cars for the following season (1987), which include Rick Hurst, Bob Bogan (Motorsports International), and Carlsen.
http://mwphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/36208
There are 8 '86 944Turbos shown as finishing in the final SS category standings. They include a Carlsen car, two from Rick Hurst Racing, a Mathewson Racing, a Motorsports International, a Sewickley, a Fred Baker Racing, and a Ken Williams Racing.
Looks like some of them have the Cup car features (Manual Door Mirrors, and I could pick out the fiberglass hood corner latch pins on at least one picture), but at least one of them looks like its a converted street car (standard door mirrors). I recall hearing that there were 7 "Cups" imported in '86, but have no way of confirming that.
I saw the Sewickley car several years ago at a Putnam Park DE event, and it has a Rothmans paint job/sponship on it now, still is #73. I will try to post a pic of it. The Ken Williams car is the car that was found under a tree (the Al Holbert test car story...) and is now for sale as somewhat of a parts kit.
At least a couple of these teams bought the upgraded Club Sports/Turbo Cup (Escort) cars for the following season (1987), which include Rick Hurst, Bob Bogan (Motorsports International), and Carlsen.
http://mwphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/36208
10-30-2005, 04:18 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by centerpunch
Good questions. I've never checked my 5th gear. Are the tachs in the cars typically accurate? I can do that probably this week.
I think all the cars were sold directly by PMNA.
I'll dig up some other files and see what I can find, too. Maybe I'll order the history on the car from Porsche and see what options they think it has.
Maybe they did plan on selling more of the cars. There's actually a factory owner's manual addendum booklet (that matches the owners manual) covering the Cup features!
I think all the cars were sold directly by PMNA.
I'll dig up some other files and see what I can find, too. Maybe I'll order the history on the car from Porsche and see what options they think it has.
Maybe they did plan on selling more of the cars. There's actually a factory owner's manual addendum booklet (that matches the owners manual) covering the Cup features!
Certainly dont go out of your way to test the gear ratio, but next time you drive the car, if you think to check some rpm/speed numbers, I would be very interested in knowing the results.
The tach is probably as accurate as the speedo, so there is some error. But I would think that its probably accurate enough to check for a gear ratio difference. As long as the car has the stock size tires on it (245/45/16)?
Check a few different rpm versus speed comparisons in 5th and I think it would tell you for sure (ie. rpm at 50, 60, 70mph, or speed at 2000, 2500, 3000 rpm etc).
11-01-2005, 09:50 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Five cars located, four to go.
Here's what we know to date:
165101 Need current information.
PMNA to Sewickley Porsche Audi (dealership), sold to Powell Motorsports (Corvette race team) early 1987 - from Powell to GM for testing?
165102 Located
PMNA to Bob Bogan (motorsports International) Raced 1987 Escort series, all races except Mid-Ohio, Sold to Nancy Lowe 4/88, has participated in many DE events.
Located, still owned by Nancy Lowe.
165103 Located
PMNA to Freddie Baker (racer and dealer, I think), Purchased by Al Grill in '87, purchased by Rich Moskalik 4/88.
Located, owned by David Roberts in Minnesota.
165104 Need current information.
PMNA to Rick Hurst Racing - Ran -87 Escort series, possibly wrecked in '87, current status not known.
165105 Located
PMNA to Carlson Porsche - photo's in Automotion catalog, written up in Excellence Magazine Feb -88 issue.
Located, very extensively modified, currently listed for sale at http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/po...12743806ss.htm
(165106 and 165107 NOT distributed through PMNA, when asked in late 1980's, PMNA believed they went to Canada direct)
165108 Need current information.
PMNA to Sewickley Porsche Audi- sold to Burt Pharris 11/87.
165109 Located
PMNA to Paul Allen of Escort radar detector company.
(This is my car.)
165110 Need current information.
PMNA to BFGoodrich - Tire testing.
165111 Located
PMNA to Charlie Spira - Los Angeles, late 1980's private owner, Wrightwood Racing?
Located, owned by Ron Tietjen in Canada.
Here's what we know to date:
165101 Need current information.
PMNA to Sewickley Porsche Audi (dealership), sold to Powell Motorsports (Corvette race team) early 1987 - from Powell to GM for testing?
165102 Located
PMNA to Bob Bogan (motorsports International) Raced 1987 Escort series, all races except Mid-Ohio, Sold to Nancy Lowe 4/88, has participated in many DE events.
Located, still owned by Nancy Lowe.
165103 Located
PMNA to Freddie Baker (racer and dealer, I think), Purchased by Al Grill in '87, purchased by Rich Moskalik 4/88.
Located, owned by David Roberts in Minnesota.
165104 Need current information.
PMNA to Rick Hurst Racing - Ran -87 Escort series, possibly wrecked in '87, current status not known.
165105 Located
PMNA to Carlson Porsche - photo's in Automotion catalog, written up in Excellence Magazine Feb -88 issue.
Located, very extensively modified, currently listed for sale at http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/po...12743806ss.htm
(165106 and 165107 NOT distributed through PMNA, when asked in late 1980's, PMNA believed they went to Canada direct)
165108 Need current information.
PMNA to Sewickley Porsche Audi- sold to Burt Pharris 11/87.
165109 Located
PMNA to Paul Allen of Escort radar detector company.
(This is my car.)
165110 Need current information.
PMNA to BFGoodrich - Tire testing.
165111 Located
PMNA to Charlie Spira - Los Angeles, late 1980's private owner, Wrightwood Racing?
Located, owned by Ron Tietjen in Canada.
Last edited by centerpunch; 11-01-2005 at 04:51 PM.
11-01-2005, 09:55 AM
#53
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Paul,
Just saw your letter in autoweek (yes i am a but behind in my readings). Three years ago I was emailing a gent in florida about his wifes 3 series convertible and the next day saw his letter correcting the editors about plymouth history in Sports Car Market.
The internet makes the world a much smaller place.
Just saw your letter in autoweek (yes i am a but behind in my readings). Three years ago I was emailing a gent in florida about his wifes 3 series convertible and the next day saw his letter correcting the editors about plymouth history in Sports Car Market.
The internet makes the world a much smaller place.
11-01-2005, 12:54 PM
#55
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Jim Schrager quoted on page one of your site spent over half an hour on his dime advising me on how to deal with the insurance company when my 944S2 was stolen.
I wrote a letter thanking him for his help which after expert editing became a legal files article in the july 04 SCM. I have to get around to getting permission to re use the article in my local PCA magazine. The article is basically my article, but reads much smoother.
I wrote a letter thanking him for his help which after expert editing became a legal files article in the july 04 SCM. I have to get around to getting permission to re use the article in my local PCA magazine. The article is basically my article, but reads much smoother.
11-02-2005, 11:00 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Interesting excerpt from a Corvette book about the Corvette vs 944 Turbo competition in the SCCA Escort series:
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/gal...&galleryId=752
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/gal...&galleryId=752
11-04-2005, 01:49 AM
#60
Rennlist Member
Paul,
Both those articles are interesting. The Excellence article (I also have this issue) is a curiosity due to the publish date - FEB 88. Since the car is an 87 and the supposedly the 944 Turbos and Corvettes were banned from the Escort series after 87, the article seems to be published a year late...? It does mention Jon Milledge as one of the Carlsen drivers - a name that has come up since in 944(T) engine building.
The Corvette article is interesting from its very Chevy/GM point of view. I do not believe that Porsche had much of any factory involvement in the US Escort series. And from your research, it was GM, not Porsche that went out of their way to buy a car from the competition to compare and disect... The Escort 944Ts were making 300 bhp tops. I do not believe that they were making more power than the 350-375bhp corvettes.
Both those articles are interesting. The Excellence article (I also have this issue) is a curiosity due to the publish date - FEB 88. Since the car is an 87 and the supposedly the 944 Turbos and Corvettes were banned from the Escort series after 87, the article seems to be published a year late...? It does mention Jon Milledge as one of the Carlsen drivers - a name that has come up since in 944(T) engine building.
The Corvette article is interesting from its very Chevy/GM point of view. I do not believe that Porsche had much of any factory involvement in the US Escort series. And from your research, it was GM, not Porsche that went out of their way to buy a car from the competition to compare and disect... The Escort 944Ts were making 300 bhp tops. I do not believe that they were making more power than the 350-375bhp corvettes.