'82 924
03-24-2008, 11:58 PM
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'82 924
I really want to get racing with the SCCA and I keep seeing how the '81 or '82 924 are very competitive cars to have. Where is the best place to look for them? Any advice and is this going in the right direction for me? Are parts easy to come by and are they easy to work on? Lots of questions I know!
03-25-2008, 09:45 AM
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Sounds like we need to talk, buddy! 
I'm not so sure you don't want an early car; though they have some issues to work through and will need quite a few updates (mainly head, transmission (81-82 5-speed), and brakes (M471/944)), they're much lighter to begin with - and the ITB 924 may be getting a weight reduction soon, making this more important, especially for the heavier drivers! Best perhaps to wait another month, see what comes up.
To look for them - anywhere, they litter the place. eBay, 924board.org, cars.com, autotrader, etc.
You won't find many built IT-prepped 924's - though I do know of one in the area (here - Detroit), in addition to mine and my teammates, I mean.
Parts aren't hard to come by, between sharing the suspension with the early 944 (key for race parts/speed) and having lots of cheap parts cars around.
You will need to learn the differences across the model years, both to find a car and know what spares to get and where to find them. More on that later.
Finally, is this the right path. There's much debate on that, but you must choose your own path. First off, is it a good choice to race in? Definitely, IMO. Not the fastest things out there, but very inexpensive to run in this class (ITB) - which is VERY important. ITA is noticeably more expensive - typically $6-10k for a decent car, vs. $3-5k for a decent ITB car - and ITS and ITR, the faster classes (944 2.5L runs in ITS) are even worse. Note that these cost differences also relate to operating costs (tires, etc) as well as car purchase price. Also note that ITB is reasonably popular in your area, NE US. ITB's nearly non-existent in other areas, like Pac NW. Helps to have someone to race! In fact, the very fastest ITB cars in the country come from the NE regions.
Are 924's good to run in this class? Definitely (as if I'd say different! . They are of course easy to drive, due to the configuration, and the brakes are killer of course, biggest challenge is getting power out of the engine (as well as maybe getting all the weight out of the car). They tend to be very reliable and solid, once debugged (consider you're starting with a 25-yr-old car!), capable of taking a lot of abuse, and the engine's are much simpler than the 944's engine, so overall quite easy to work on. The biggest PITA would be just the setup of the rear suspension - it's tricky to work with, but it is worth the effort, since it sticks so well when you have it right.
Is the 924 the right car to take to driver's school? No, not really - though that is how I did it. It's never a great idea to try to build your first racecar - though again, that's how I did it. You are better off buying an existing, proven reliable IT car (or renting, possibly) and using that for school and first races while you figure out what's going on and build up the car you ultimately want to race. For school, you need seat time, and that requires a reliable car!! Certainly it helps that you have track experience, but of course going wheel-to-wheel always adds another level!
Besides, you'll only figure out, as you go, just how you want your racecar set up; building a car after you start will give the opportunity to use that knowledge. 'Cause very few people ever build a second racecar! It is a lot of work. I think I've easily cleared $15k of investments into my 924, and it would easily take $10k to at least replicate most of that when starting from scratch. Of course that's assuming you get a car to start with for about $500 or so. Figure $2k for cage (a good one, of course!), about the same for motor (just building a decent one yourself - pro-built motors are about $5k), easily 3k for suspension, if not more, $1k or more for the right trans with LSD... you can see it adding up!
That's what it takes to run well, towards the front. Plus skill, of course. But consider that it takes more like $20-30k to run at the front of ITA, and even worse for ITS. A top-notch 944 ITS engine alone costs $12-15k!
Also, you'll need to be very familiar with the rulebook to build a car; I can help with this, but it's VERY important - too easy to make an illegal car. Another key resource for IT racing is the forums at improvedtouring.com. Lots of knowledge there, cars and parts for sale, etc.
If you're still interested... here's info about the years of the 924, as relates to racing.
76-77 - the lightest cars, possibly as little as 2350 or so curb weight. But they have smaller valves, weak cam, 4-speed trans, and 4-bolt brakes (solid disc front, drum rear). However it's possible and legal to retrofit all the good bits to these cars, with mostly no extra work; only exception is the rear suspension on these early cars is a little different, so a little monkeying to get stiff bushings will be required. I think they'll use 911 performance bushings (delrin, etc). But bigger valve head, big brakes, and 5-speed will all bolt in, and the rear suspension bolts directly to the body - less mushy rubber bushings to replace.
77.5-78 - this is when a better cam (unchanged after this, we must use a stock cam) came into play, and the bigger valves IIRC. But the cars started to get heaver. OTOH, the power mirrors and windows, etc, can be ditched, as well as sound insulation, so that helps. Also, I think in '78 is when the later/944-style rear suspension was made; better road noise insulation with rubber mounts, but you want to get rid of all that for improved performance, so there's more cost there in the build. Still 4-speed trans and 4-bolt brakes.
79 - this is the hot rod. But you don't likely want it. This was the year the 5-lug brakes became available as part of the M471 option. Those are hard to find, but the hardware is the same as the early 944, so thus easy to source there. They also had an optional rear spoiler - cuts drag, slight improvement in rear downforce. It's smaller than the 944 wing, same as used on 924S and 931. They also had the first iteration of the 5-speed trans, but you don't want it - rare, impossible to get parts for, lousy shift gate pattern for racing, and always busted. If this is the way you end up going, the good news is that, with some parts swapping, you can in fact bolt in a later 5-speed. These cars are now definitely heavier, scaling at around 2650-2700# curb weight. This is what I run; with me weighing around 160#, I can easily run the current comp weight of 2600# (w/ driver, including 40# ballast), but getting lighter is a little tougher though not impossible.
81-82 - heaviest, definitely, now we have the (good) 5-speed at least optional, but also reasonably common. It'll take a LSD from a 944 or 951 (the latter is what I'm running). Probably the best gearing too. Again, the most powerful engine (from 78 onward). Also more likely to have 5-lug brakes, but again this isn't a sticker since they're easy to retrofit. Biggest PITA is these cars will be the most expensive, and the heaviest. We've ground off undercoating, etc, to get weight down. OTOH, these cars have the highest CR (9:1), which is preferable. At least if you can source a motor from one that'd be best.
Final observations. These cars run like crap until you debug all the electrical problems (mainly I mean ignition, some engine stuff) and fuel system is cleaned and running well. Really is best to work some of this out on a dyno to make sure you're making full power; there's so little to be had, you really need every last bit, and it's amazing how much power you can lose if your fuel delivery isn't right or your ignition's dropping out. Of course some debug will never be complete until on the track.
Building a trans (getting the right 5-speed and having an LSD installed) will cost - bottom line, you will have to outsource this unless you're already a trans expert, and it'll cost $800 just to install a diff. That's no BS. It sucks. It also takes a lot of time to set up properly (shims etc). So best to plan on building a good one up, fresh synchros, etc. Then they're quite robust. Gearing is different from the 944 and 931, BTW - you need a 924-specific unit.
Suspension and brake setup is easy if you're familiar with the 944, since it's all the same stuff, performance parts, etc (and I believe you are?). 944-Spec suspension package is a great start except for the shocks; 30mm t-bars and 400# springs is a good start, but the Konis aren't up to the job, and I hear the Bilstein HD's are even worse. I run Bilstein custom race shocks; my teammate has the same up front, Carrera QA2's in the rear. They're relatively quite inexpensive, not too much more than the Konis, but they'll last for years, many years, whereas you'll be lucky to get one good season out of the Konis. Better to budget for the right thing up front, you'll be ahead of the curve after the second year (not to mention a helluva lot faster). I'm now running even higher spring and torsion bar rates, but that does increase the pricetag and difficulty of driving the thing - it's a lot stiffer and twitchier.
Engine is pretty easy to build, you should definitely be OK to build your own to get started; just light balance and blueprint, overbore and bump compression, build it clean but don't waste a huge amount of time and money on building a time-bomb; instead focus on getting the ignition and fuel system working properly, and you'll be far enough along to get on track and do well. To go beyond that, then you buy a built motor.
That's a huge bunch of info to digest, but really only the tip of the iceberg - many more build details etc behind that. You may also wish to review my website for some more info and pics.
I'm not so sure you don't want an early car; though they have some issues to work through and will need quite a few updates (mainly head, transmission (81-82 5-speed), and brakes (M471/944)), they're much lighter to begin with - and the ITB 924 may be getting a weight reduction soon, making this more important, especially for the heavier drivers! Best perhaps to wait another month, see what comes up.
To look for them - anywhere, they litter the place. eBay, 924board.org, cars.com, autotrader, etc.
You won't find many built IT-prepped 924's - though I do know of one in the area (here - Detroit), in addition to mine and my teammates, I mean.
Parts aren't hard to come by, between sharing the suspension with the early 944 (key for race parts/speed) and having lots of cheap parts cars around.
You will need to learn the differences across the model years, both to find a car and know what spares to get and where to find them. More on that later.
Finally, is this the right path. There's much debate on that, but you must choose your own path. First off, is it a good choice to race in? Definitely, IMO. Not the fastest things out there, but very inexpensive to run in this class (ITB) - which is VERY important. ITA is noticeably more expensive - typically $6-10k for a decent car, vs. $3-5k for a decent ITB car - and ITS and ITR, the faster classes (944 2.5L runs in ITS) are even worse. Note that these cost differences also relate to operating costs (tires, etc) as well as car purchase price. Also note that ITB is reasonably popular in your area, NE US. ITB's nearly non-existent in other areas, like Pac NW. Helps to have someone to race! In fact, the very fastest ITB cars in the country come from the NE regions.
Are 924's good to run in this class? Definitely (as if I'd say different!
. They are of course easy to drive, due to the configuration, and the brakes are killer of course, biggest challenge is getting power out of the engine (as well as maybe getting all the weight out of the car). They tend to be very reliable and solid, once debugged (consider you're starting with a 25-yr-old car!), capable of taking a lot of abuse, and the engine's are much simpler than the 944's engine, so overall quite easy to work on. The biggest PITA would be just the setup of the rear suspension - it's tricky to work with, but it is worth the effort, since it sticks so well when you have it right.Is the 924 the right car to take to driver's school? No, not really - though that is how I did it. It's never a great idea to try to build your first racecar - though again, that's how I did it. You are better off buying an existing, proven reliable IT car (or renting, possibly) and using that for school and first races while you figure out what's going on and build up the car you ultimately want to race. For school, you need seat time, and that requires a reliable car!! Certainly it helps that you have track experience, but of course going wheel-to-wheel always adds another level!
Besides, you'll only figure out, as you go, just how you want your racecar set up; building a car after you start will give the opportunity to use that knowledge. 'Cause very few people ever build a second racecar!
It is a lot of work. I think I've easily cleared $15k of investments into my 924, and it would easily take $10k to at least replicate most of that when starting from scratch. Of course that's assuming you get a car to start with for about $500 or so. Figure $2k for cage (a good one, of course!), about the same for motor (just building a decent one yourself - pro-built motors are about $5k), easily 3k for suspension, if not more, $1k or more for the right trans with LSD... you can see it adding up!That's what it takes to run well, towards the front. Plus skill, of course. But consider that it takes more like $20-30k to run at the front of ITA, and even worse for ITS. A top-notch 944 ITS engine alone costs $12-15k!
Also, you'll need to be very familiar with the rulebook to build a car; I can help with this, but it's VERY important - too easy to make an illegal car. Another key resource for IT racing is the forums at improvedtouring.com. Lots of knowledge there, cars and parts for sale, etc.
If you're still interested... here's info about the years of the 924, as relates to racing.
76-77 - the lightest cars, possibly as little as 2350 or so curb weight. But they have smaller valves, weak cam, 4-speed trans, and 4-bolt brakes (solid disc front, drum rear). However it's possible and legal to retrofit all the good bits to these cars, with mostly no extra work; only exception is the rear suspension on these early cars is a little different, so a little monkeying to get stiff bushings will be required. I think they'll use 911 performance bushings (delrin, etc). But bigger valve head, big brakes, and 5-speed will all bolt in, and the rear suspension bolts directly to the body - less mushy rubber bushings to replace.
77.5-78 - this is when a better cam (unchanged after this, we must use a stock cam) came into play, and the bigger valves IIRC. But the cars started to get heaver. OTOH, the power mirrors and windows, etc, can be ditched, as well as sound insulation, so that helps. Also, I think in '78 is when the later/944-style rear suspension was made; better road noise insulation with rubber mounts, but you want to get rid of all that for improved performance, so there's more cost there in the build. Still 4-speed trans and 4-bolt brakes.
79 - this is the hot rod. But you don't likely want it. This was the year the 5-lug brakes became available as part of the M471 option. Those are hard to find, but the hardware is the same as the early 944, so thus easy to source there. They also had an optional rear spoiler - cuts drag, slight improvement in rear downforce. It's smaller than the 944 wing, same as used on 924S and 931. They also had the first iteration of the 5-speed trans, but you don't want it - rare, impossible to get parts for, lousy shift gate pattern for racing, and always busted. If this is the way you end up going, the good news is that, with some parts swapping, you can in fact bolt in a later 5-speed. These cars are now definitely heavier, scaling at around 2650-2700# curb weight. This is what I run; with me weighing around 160#, I can easily run the current comp weight of 2600# (w/ driver, including 40# ballast), but getting lighter is a little tougher though not impossible.
81-82 - heaviest, definitely, now we have the (good) 5-speed at least optional, but also reasonably common. It'll take a LSD from a 944 or 951 (the latter is what I'm running). Probably the best gearing too. Again, the most powerful engine (from 78 onward). Also more likely to have 5-lug brakes, but again this isn't a sticker since they're easy to retrofit. Biggest PITA is these cars will be the most expensive, and the heaviest. We've ground off undercoating, etc, to get weight down. OTOH, these cars have the highest CR (9:1), which is preferable. At least if you can source a motor from one that'd be best.
Final observations. These cars run like crap until you debug all the electrical problems (mainly I mean ignition, some engine stuff) and fuel system is cleaned and running well. Really is best to work some of this out on a dyno to make sure you're making full power; there's so little to be had, you really need every last bit, and it's amazing how much power you can lose if your fuel delivery isn't right or your ignition's dropping out. Of course some debug will never be complete until on the track.
Building a trans (getting the right 5-speed and having an LSD installed) will cost - bottom line, you will have to outsource this unless you're already a trans expert, and it'll cost $800 just to install a diff. That's no BS. It sucks. It also takes a lot of time to set up properly (shims etc). So best to plan on building a good one up, fresh synchros, etc. Then they're quite robust. Gearing is different from the 944 and 931, BTW - you need a 924-specific unit.
Suspension and brake setup is easy if you're familiar with the 944, since it's all the same stuff, performance parts, etc (and I believe you are?). 944-Spec suspension package is a great start except for the shocks; 30mm t-bars and 400# springs is a good start, but the Konis aren't up to the job, and I hear the Bilstein HD's are even worse. I run Bilstein custom race shocks; my teammate has the same up front, Carrera QA2's in the rear. They're relatively quite inexpensive, not too much more than the Konis, but they'll last for years, many years, whereas you'll be lucky to get one good season out of the Konis. Better to budget for the right thing up front, you'll be ahead of the curve after the second year (not to mention a helluva lot faster). I'm now running even higher spring and torsion bar rates, but that does increase the pricetag and difficulty of driving the thing - it's a lot stiffer and twitchier.
Engine is pretty easy to build, you should definitely be OK to build your own to get started; just light balance and blueprint, overbore and bump compression, build it clean but don't waste a huge amount of time and money on building a time-bomb; instead focus on getting the ignition and fuel system working properly, and you'll be far enough along to get on track and do well. To go beyond that, then you buy a built motor.
That's a huge bunch of info to digest, but really only the tip of the iceberg - many more build details etc behind that. You may also wish to review my website for some more info and pics.
03-25-2008, 02:24 PM
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I have a 79 with all the goodies that I've owned and raced for about 15 years. Completely sorted. Fast (for a 924 of course ). Reliable. Cheap to run.
Vaughan's info is spot on but if you're interested in more info regarding my car and experiences, email and I'm happy to share. I'm mid-atlantic, so I'm a bit closer if that helps you out.
). Reliable. Cheap to run. Vaughan's info is spot on but if you're interested in more info regarding my car and experiences, email and I'm happy to share. I'm mid-atlantic, so I'm a bit closer if that helps you out.
03-25-2008, 02:26 PM
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You running in ITB???
03-25-2008, 05:01 PM
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Vaughan,
WOW, what a lot of information you have given me. I have already take a SCCA school and passed my first time in my boss' Miata. I do not have any interest in building a car as I know it will cost more in the end. So I guess the search might begin for a good '79 then! I can't thank you enough and I will be using you for a resource often if that is OK. Best wishes - Jay
WOW, what a lot of information you have given me. I have already take a SCCA school and passed my first time in my boss' Miata. I do not have any interest in building a car as I know it will cost more in the end. So I guess the search might begin for a good '79 then! I can't thank you enough and I will be using you for a resource often if that is OK. Best wishes - Jay
03-25-2008, 05:32 PM
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NO NO NO NO!!!
DON'T GET A '79!! The gearboxes are NFG - No Good!
I'd be more than happy to help; if you want contact info on the '77 car that's over here, drop me a PM, I can put you in touch. It needs work, I'm sure, but does have a cage and a logbook - could be put back on track with modest updates and some refreshing, I'm sure.
But you will have a hard time finding a built 2.0L car - they're not that common in IT.
Likewise, if you find yourself moving to IT in a different car, I'll still be happy to share my advice!
DON'T GET A '79!! The gearboxes are NFG - No Good!
I'd be more than happy to help; if you want contact info on the '77 car that's over here, drop me a PM, I can put you in touch. It needs work, I'm sure, but does have a cage and a logbook - could be put back on track with modest updates and some refreshing, I'm sure.
But you will have a hard time finding a built 2.0L car - they're not that common in IT.
Likewise, if you find yourself moving to IT in a different car, I'll still be happy to share my advice!