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I have a very detailed thread dating back to April 21 2009. The day I drug my 1966 Porsche out of the back yard of a small house in south Phoenix. I've detailed every step I've taken, and everything I've learned along the way. If you want to read the whole story, you can find that here...
For those of you that don't want to take the time to read through the link above, here are the details of my 912.
1966, Slate Gray with Red Interior, 3 gauge dash, 5-Speed transmission.
and here's a few pictures of my 912.
First off, here's my certificate of authenticity.
The condition it was in when I found it.
Loaded up taking it home.
Some of the prep work.
After the paint work.
New Parts.
Just before the interior re-do.
Brand new tires and a fancy new "old" license plate frame.
New interior.
I had just ordered new aluminum dash trim, new carpet for the cargo area and the interior, a correct shift ****, and the correct emblems for the deck-lid. I had removed the deck-lid so that I could attach the emblems, and I had just installed the new leather horn button.
The day I installed the carpet I was driving it home. I was on the freeway going about 60-ish in the middle lane. I notice that my engine is making a bit more noise than usual. I turn on my signal to get over but no one wants to let me. All of a sudden I hear a pop, and I am surrounded by smoke. Of course when that happens everyone lets me over. I coast the the shoulder and roll to a stop. I get out of the car and see smoke coming out of the open port on my oil filler/oil breather tank. I shimmy my way under the car to check it out and I didn't notice anything out of place. There's no holes or cracks in the case, no leaks spewing from anywhere, all the pushrod tubes are in place, everything "appears" to be fine. I pull the dipstick and see oil on the bottom. To be honest, I didn't know what happened or what was going on.
I trailer it into work, pull off the oil plate and drain the oil. I look at what comes out and find nice sparkly "Edward Culleny" glitters settling in the bottom. I try to turn over the engine by hand... No dice. So I put the plate back on, button it up, and then I went and cried in a corner in the fetal position.
Here's a pic of it on the side of the freeway...
Okay guys. Here's my dilemma. I had just spent about $4k rebuilding that motor. I say "just" because it only had about 500 miles and a few months of actual driving since the rebuild, but the rebuild itself was completed 5 years ago. It took me a few years to install it and drive it. Either way though. I'm frustrated with it and I don't think it's rebuildable, and I don't really want to do it all over again. After ordering the shift **** and dash trim I only had one other thing that I wanted to do then I was done. I was going to re-wrap the steering wheel, that was it and I would have been finished. But now... I feel that I've been punched in the gut and then kicked while I was down.
So I need some advice. I don't have the time, money, or patience to deal with it again. I need some quick solutions. This is what I'm thinking my options are. with a few quick pros and cons for each.
1.) Sell it as-is. With the certificate of authenticity showing that it has the original wheels, color combo, and original engine and trans.
Pros - It has the original motor and trans. It's easy and quick and my heartache can end.
Cons - The value is significantly diminished by having a blown motor. I no longer will have the car. and all the work I put into it will basically disappear.
2.) pull the motor, replace it with a different Porsche motor.
Pros - Although not as valuable as the original, it probably brings back the most value to my car. That's about the only pro.
Cons - A replacement Porsche motor will likely cost me around $7k. I'm not jazzed about spending an additional $7k on this car right now after having just spent $4k to rebuild the original.
3.) Pull the motor, replace it with a VW 411 motor out of a bus.
Pros - It's likely the cheapest way to make the car run again. It will bring some additional value to the car vs. having it non running. It will likely be faster/more reliable than the original 912 motor.
Cons - It's not a "Porsche motor".
What do you guys think? If I were to get rid of it, I don't even know where to value it. These cars seem to be anywhere from the low teens to over $70k. I have a very highly desirable color combo that also happens to be the original color combo. I have all kinds of new parts. I have my certificate of authenticity. But... What is a very nice 912 with a numbers matching blown motor even worth? I don't know. Help me decide.
Hey Danger - my best advice for right now is if you have some storage space - store it for a bit while you think this through. i too had this situation where i spent way more time and $$ than anticipated over a few years - only to have the engine throw a connecting rod bolt off the crank and that basically set me back significantly. and then the rebuilt engine had a problem... more shop time and more $$ .. and more questions from significant other.. etc, etc. sleep on it a few more days... and if you think you might sell PM me a price you are thinking as i may know someone that would be interested in it as it sits..
I would say take a 30 day breather then look at it with a fresh perspective afterwards. The car is a stunner, and its all yours. Maybe after clearing your head you will roll up your sleeves and pull the case apart to see what has gone bad. You know the work ~ as you have done it before. The second time is WAY easier as most of the parts will not require time to refinish etc. It could be as simple as a dismantle, investigate, & reassemble.
You can easily sell this car as-is (I bet I can think of a guy who could finish this project) but then you will never receive the joy of having it done, and your future pleasure use.
I hate it for you, but it could be worse. Keep in mind: This is no hill for a climber.
I may "test the waters" so to speak and put it up for sale and see what offers I get. Because these cars are all over the place in value. I really don't know what is accurate. If I don't get something that I can live with, I'll probably do something along the lines of what has been mentioned here. I'll "cool off" for a minute, pull the motor out and try to fix it.
I have a question for DavePorsche though, I fear that what you described might be what happened to me. With these cases being made out of aluminum and not magnesium like the VW motors, what is the expense, difficulty, trouble to repair one? The original numbers matching case is obviously a huge part of the value of my car and salvaging that would be a priority if I plan to keep it at all.
In my mind it all comes down to what you were planning to do with your 912 once it was "done" - before the engine failure. For many guys it's the rebuilding and making something special that is the fun part and once it's "done" they sell and look for another challenge. For others, all the work in rebuilding and refurbishing is just a means to an end - owning a wonderful Porsche that they can love and enjoy for many years to come. If you had planned on being the second guy in this scenario, as others have said, take a break and then decide. In that case you might also consider option 4 - find a suitable "transitional" engine (either a used but running 356/912 motor or VW motor) to install and enjoy the car now and then take your time and rebuild the numbers matching original motor in your own time to once again be mated back to the chassis she belongs with.
I was in your shoes 33+ years ago. I was in college., had found MY Porsche 912. I spent a summer getting the body and chassis back into good, but nowhere near perfect shape and had done some minor motor work too. I drove it for 6 wonderful months before it developed a huge oil leak from somewhere near the oil cooler. It was the middle of a very cold Wisconsin winter and I was out of funds, time and patience and had now place to work on it, so I parked it at my parents home with plans to one day rebuild the engine and get it back on the road. Now 33 years (several of which it sat out in the elements) and 3 moves later I finally have the spare funds and available time to do a complete restoration on MY 912. As you can see, I am the second guy in the scenario. MY 912 dreams weren't lost, just long delayed. For me, I am willing to go through it all again because I really want to see MY 912 back on the road again in all her glory and I want to love and care for her for many more years to come.
Best of luck as you decide what's best for you and your 912.
Danger - i am far from an expert on anything.. so I dont want to give too much advice.. I will say the case was not damaged in my situation as the engine was shut off quickly enough that there wasnt damage to the case. the piston on the other hand.. i think somehow on rennlist you can find my profile and find threads i started. it shows what we found inside the case and it was ugly. but the case wasnt damaged.. new pistons, new crank, new everything basically.. but saved the case. my problem turned out to be oil flow related and a very small part (cost wise) likely cost me both the first and second time i had problems. i now have additional oil pressure gauge installed . and a deep sump - and an oil cooler -
I like P912guy's comments. if it was a project .. heck keep it and keep working on it. if it was a lifer car .. keep it and keep working on it. if you are tired of it and want a car with air conditioning anyway ... sell it and move on. i honestly dont drive my 912 as much as I should .. it is tempermental - too much $$ in it - and it sits a lot - but i love the dang thing.
if you have someone do the engine buy the best parts and pay for the best builder & installer you can - the premium will be long forgotten after five+ years. the pain of going back again... that stays with ya. trust me.
It is like a horror movie re looking at those pictures!!
that new engine went in.. and within a few days of driving.. pop. back to the shop... problem found and solved and no problems since.. knock on something... anything... that makes me not regret saying that.
I think I'm more of the first scenario kind of guy. Even before this happened, I hadn't planned on keeping it much longer, but I feel I have good reason for that.
I'll basically copy and paste what I wrote in my other thread mentioned above. That might give you guys a better idea of how I feel about this situation.
I hope I don't get any flack for saying this... But here goes...
I actually don't really like this car. I mean, I love that it's a "Porsche" I love the way it looks. I love the red interior and that it's supposed to have red interior. I love the originality of it and that I have the certificate to back it up. But... I'm not a fancy guy who has fancy things. I just happen to be a regular guy who has a fancy car. I know it's worth a crap ton of money and every time I drive it, every time I look at it, I just worry about what is going to happen to it. I am not even joking when I say that on the day this happened, not even 5 minutes before this happened, as I was about to get on the freeway I actually had the thought something along the lines of this... "I wish I didn't have to drive this back and forth to work every time I need to do something to it. I wish I had a place at work that I could store it, or I wish I had a workshop at home to work on it. Then I wouldn't have to drive it."
Whenever I drive it. Especially on the freeway, every sound I hear, every smell I smell, my first thought is, "What's that?" or "What's going wrong?" or "What's about to catch on fire?" anytime I get behind a truck I want to get as far away as possible cause I'm terrified to get a rock chip on the paint or shattering my headlight lens. Whenever I park it I'm nervous about a door ding or a scratch from someone getting too close. I don't even like having my garage door open. It sits in the garage next to my Karmann Ghia, which also "looks really nice" and I worry that anyone with any nefarious intentions will see two "nice" old classic cars in the garage, one of them being a Porsche and then assume that I have lots of money and try to rob me. A few months ago, I had a guy come over and work on some plumbing on the house. The whole time he was here I specifically didn't open the garage door cause I didn't want him to know that I owned a Porsche. A few weeks before that I was in the driveway and the door was open, some redneck in a beat up Chevy truck pulls up behind me... "How much chew want fer it?" I look at him, knowing he has no idea, so I say... "$60k" he looks it up and down like it was his super hot 18 year old cousin that he was about to sexually molest and says... "Dats nice. I'm gonna call my cousin and tell him about it. He works on old cars." I ignore him, walk inside and close the door. For the next several days I was on the look out for Cledus and his cousin. Hoping that they never returned.
Anyway... I know in some ways I'm being a little over cautious, or a little paranoid. But, what is the point of owning a car that you feel that way about? In comparison, I also have my Karmann Ghia Sport. That car is worth only a fraction of what the Porsche is worth. But... Every time I want to drive the Ghia, it starts right up with no problems. I don't ever worry about it. It's a very comfortable freeway cruiser. The Porsche always seemed like it was struggling on the freeway. Despite the fact that it had a 5-speed compared to the Ghias 4 speed. I have taken the Ghia on several "long-ish" drives. I never feel nervous about driving it. If I get a rock chip, who cares? Door ding, who cares? A piece of trim falls off, it's going to be cheaper and easier to replace than anything that happens with the Porsche.
I think that when I first had the Porsche, I was excited about it, and to be honest, if it weren't as valuable as it its, I likely wouldn't have these feelings. But, I really don't like the idea of driving around a car that's worth... ???... Tens of thousands of dollars, and is super rare, and is hard to find parts for, and is collectible, and, and, and. If I'm not comfortable driving a car like that, and if I'm not a fancy guy with a fancy car collection full of a bunch of other fancy cars that I also don't drive, then why own such a car?
If you take away the looks, the status, the image of it being a Porsche and really compare the driving dynamic of the 912 VS. the Ghia. The only thing, and literally the only thing that I like about the Porsche that the Ghia doesn't offer me is a seat that reclines. In my opinion, that's not really a good enough reason to keep two cars that, at their heart, are basically the same thing. The Porsche and the Ghia are very much the same car. Only the Ghia drives better.
So in a way, I think I'm kinda done with it. Of course, had it not blown up, I would have driven it a bit, and I would have enjoyed it, but to be perfectly honest. I didn't really see myself keeping it much longer anyway. Now, this catastrophic engine failure has taken, not the wind, but the breeze that was left in the sails of my Porsche dream away from me.
***runs and hides before the Porsche purists burn me at the stake for saying these blasphemous things***
No judgements here. I think you have answered your own question. It's not a car that you seem to be heavily invested in, other than financially. If I were in your shoes and felt the way you feel, I'd be looking for a buyer now. You can provide excellent documentation of what is being offered for sale. There are lots of Porsche lovers out there that hate dealing with body and chassis work that would jump at a chance to take your 912 off your hands. I don't really think you'd recoup your investment in putting a new engine in, 356/912 or VW before you sell. Your best potential buyer won't want the VW power plant and will either want to put a 616.36 (rebuilt original or replacement) back into it, or will want to turn it into a 912/6 with a power plant from a 911 (very popular these days with the values on 911s skyrocketing now). Who knows, there might be a guy looking for the perfect 912 to install a POLO engine into and your 912 would fit the bill.
The other option if you want to sell it is to pull the engine, disassemble it and diagnose the problem. If an expensive fix, then label and bag all the engine parts and price it accordingly. That way prospective buyers know exactly what they are getting into.
I have a hard time letting go of cars, so if I was in your shoes, I would want to enjoy it after all the time and money put into it, so I would slap a VW engine in it and drive it while the numbers matching engine would be crated up and stored until I had the funds to rebuild it again.
Okay, your long post puts it in perspective. I know JUST what you mean when you talk of cars that seem too nice to drive and therefore take the joy away. I think your car was getting there too. It sure looked the part.
Get out while prices are high. Have lots of photos to remember it by, and enjoy driving a car that suits your personal style. This life gifted upon each of us is much too short to have the type of feelings you were expressing. Simply sell it & enjoy the knowledge & skills that you gained from the project.
I suppose in the interest of keeping the thread up to date. Here's the latest pictures of the carpet installed, and the new goodies that have yet to be installed.
New carpet installed. The little black patch inbetween the back seats is temporary. They forgot to send me that patch when I ordered the carpet kit. They have since sent it and I need to install it.
Other new goodies. New shift ****, dash trim, horn button refurbished, and new "proper" 1966 rear emblems.
07-14-2015, 03:51 AM
What to do? 1966 Porsche 912, sell it? keep it?
