BradS911

Im looking at 69-73 911's and am also open to a 66-69 912. Are people who own a 912 looked down at by the 911 folks? It seems that to get a resto project for the $ i have at the moment... 6000-6500, I will get alot more with a 912. most of the 911's in that range are pretty rough, and Ive seen a few very nice 912's go for about that much. I am looking for a restoration... engine rebuild/interior/exterior resto... but want a rust free example because I dont want to deal with welding and rust... a resto you can drive down the street without fenders falling off would be best.
Guess my concerns are that the resto itself wont be alot cheaper than a 911 except maybe on the engine rebuild... and dont want to go to shows and be designated a "poor mans porsche"... any 912 owners experience this.. or am I being paranoid...

hoffman912

1st, a 912 will cost as much to restore as a 911 does. same body, same everything, only thing different is the engine, and a good engine rebuild will cost towards 7-10k. so you really arent saving anything by going with a 912. the only thing you will save on is maintenence cause its easier to work on.

2nd.. who gives a crap what others think? if youre worried about people looking down on you, you are looking for the wrong reason. there are a ton of people that love 912s and they are getting alot more recognition, and are going up in popularity and value.

3rd. 6k will get you a car that needs alot of work. for an excellent example expect to pay towards 20. a great example 15. and a good around 11.

the 912 is not a poor mans porsche. again see 2nd.. some people look down, but they have their heads in their *** and wouldnt know spit. why would anyone want to hang around someone like that to begin with!? yes.. we do run into people like that, but you run into ignorance everywhere, whether it be something about cars, or race, or creed etc. I laugh at people like that myself.

the 912 registry, a group of 912 enthusiests reaching all corners of the globe is a very tight nit brother hood. we love the cars and are very passionate about them. We have meetings, events and driving tours all over.


i suggest visiting 912 registry.org 912register.co.uk 912rendezvous.org

talk to people on the www.912bbs.org and see what they say about these cool little cars

BradS911

Thanks! I agree with your comments... just making sure that others agree... Thanks... Brad

kurt M

Above comments are spot on. If you build a good motor and set up the car right you can sometimes embarrass long hood 911s at the track if you catch them napping. If I had it to do over again I would get a 911 for the track. As was well said the only true good point of a 912 over a same era 911 is the ease of work and cost savings on the motor. Nice 912s are now harder to find than same year 911s. Porsche made and sold a lot more 912s that 911 during the years the 912 was made but they were often not as well maintained or became donor cars for 911s.

SandyI

I couldn't have said it any better than Harry did. I know when I'm driving my '69 911E, I've exchanged big smiles, thumbs-ups, or even friendly short conversations at slow speed on the road with early 911 and 912 owners. It's a great community of car lovers. (Of course, there are some 911S snobs that look down their noses at my 911E but that's their problem.) You can't go wrong with the 912 or 911 but it's VERY important that before you embark on a restoration, you're sure you've bought the right car for you. Drive as many as possible before you commit. But I've got to say that $6,000 isn't near enough money to begin with. Now, with $16,000 ready to go...

hoffman912

Just wondering, where are you located at Brad?

BradS911

Houston, TX. Plan on spending 20-25K total, so I know cost isnt the main factor for either the 911 or 912. Thanks for all the feedback.

hoffman912

Brad, you need to get in touch with the texas 912 group. they are a great bunch of guys, and will set you staight http://texas912.org/

Pedro356C

Hi Brad...first of all you need to focus on the car you really want...911s and 912s are completely different cars... every vintage Porsche is unique and you have to communicate with them...you have to understand what is a 912 and a 911 first...then, you make up your mind and focus on the target...why 1969-1973 911s and 1966-1969 912s? Why you are considering the SWB 912s and not the 911s? Anyway, my suggestion would be: study deeply both cars, decide which one you really want and buy the best car you can afford because to restore a car is more expensive than to get a car already done...

As far as people looking down on you...it's their issue not yours... unless of course you care about it...and if you do care about it, you don't need a vintage Porsche, you need a doctor...

Take care and good luck on your search...

hoffman912

excellent point!

m21sniper

"and a good engine rebuild will cost towards 7-10k."

I often find myself wondering what planet other Porsche owners live on.

Here's a list of complete 911 rebuild kits for under 1000 bucks. Figure another couple Gs for machining service and R&R.

http://www.motormeister.com/suz/rebu...ld_kit_911.htm

$7-10g, lol, where were all you guys when i used to turn wrenches for a living?

hoffman912

motormeister is a sham, and a crappy engine builder. i wouldnt let him build my lawnmower motor, or buy any kits from him. if you do a search on pelican's 911 forums you can read all the nightmares.

a rebuild kit and having someone else rebuild it are two different things.

the other thing with rebuilds -these engines arent vw engines. these engines have specifc tolerences and have to be handled by someone who knows them. they are more complex than you would think. you dont just give 912 heads to any machine shop, it has to be someone who knows 912 and 356 engines, like competition engineering, or ollies.

as far as engine parts costs.. i spent about 6K+ in parts alone on my rebuild. so even if i did it myself id be in that ball park. the labor on my rebuild was only about 1500-1800.

your rebuild kit doesnt include valves, pistons and cylinders, main bearings, carburetor rebuild or remanufacture, clutch, or any other very important and costsly bits for a rebuild.

a gasket kit is hardly a rebuild kit. not to mention, thats only for a bottom end gasket kit too.

m21sniper

An aircooled opposed six engine is actually much easier to rebuild than a watercooled one(there's one less system to contend with, and fewer parts, ie, less to buy).
A 2v aircooled is much simpler than the typical modern 4v watercooled V-6 to rebuild, let alone a 32V porsche watercooled V-8.

"Rebuilding a Porsche 911 engine is neither impossibly complex nor in any way counterintuitive. It can be done by anybody who has the time, tools, compulsiveness and common sense to do the job in a scrupulously clean, careful and organized fashion. Literally. Bruce Anderson, a respected Porsche technical expert, gives weekend-long, small-group, hands-on workshops in suburban San Francisco on how to rebuild Porsche 911 engines and transmissions. He once said to me, "I can teach anybody with a pulse how to do it."
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automot...658023,00.html

PS:The kit i linked to was a Porsche Engine Top and Bottom Rebuild Kit, not a 'gasket kit'. It does include all engine bearings and all gaskets(bottom of the list, under the 'master kit' section).

As for the rest, the pistons may not even need replacing, nor the cyl sleeves. Same for the valves. There is a vast difference between a 'standard' rebuild, and comprehensive rebuild.

A carb rebuild is not part of an engine rebuild.

A clutch is also not part of an engine rebuild. That's an additional cost on top of an engine rebuild. If your price included a full trans and carb rebuild, then it's a lot less outrageous than at first glance.

Here's all the parts in the Porsche Engine Top and Bottom Rebuild Kit:

1 Set Porsche Main Bearings
* German Glyco
* STD/STD
* Oversize avaible
1 (set) Connecting Rod Bearings
* German Glyco
* STD/STD
* Oversize aviable
4 Intermidate Shaft Bearings
* German Glyco
* 1969 and older includes 2-more
12 Porsche Connecting Rod Bolts
* German
* Never re-use stretched bolts
* Racing Aerospace bolts avaible
1 Porsche Main Seal Front
* German Reinz
1 Porsche Main Seal Rear
* German Reinz
4 Porsche Oil Pump Seals
* German Reinz
1 Porsche #8 O'ring
* German Reinz
1 Porsche Oil Pump Lock Tabs Set
* Factory Porsche
* Never re-use
3 Porsche Oil Cooler Seals
* German Reinz
24 Porsche Case O'rings
* German Reinz
1 Porsche Oil Thermostat O'ring
* German Reinz
2 Porsche Camshaft Pins
* Factory Porsche
2 Camshaft End Play Gaskets
* Victor Reinz
2 Camshaft Plate O'rings
* Victor Reinz
2 Camshaft Housing Gaskets
* Victor Reinz
2 Camshaft Cover Plate Gaskets
* Victor Reinz
6 Camshaft Oil Line Seals
* Victor Reinz
2 Camshaft Housing to Case Gaskets
* Victor Reinz
2 Camshaft Shaft Key Ways
* Factory Porsche
2 Porsche Timing Chains
* German Iwis
* Non Link Style
1 Set Turbo Chain Rails
* German Swag
* Upgrade
2 Valve Cover Gaskets Lower
* Victor Reinz
2 Valve Cover Gaskets Upper
* Victor Reinz
6 Porsche Intake Manifold Gaskets
* Victor Reinz
1 Intermidate Shaft Gasket
* German Reinz
1 Porsche Oil Breather Gasket
* German Reinz
1 Porsche Distributor Seal
* German Reinz
12 Bronze Phos. Valve guides
* Longer lasting
* Better lubrication
* Harder material
* Upgrade
12 Teflon Valve Stem Seals
* Longer lasting
* Upgrade
8 Porsche Oil Return Tube Seals
* Green Viton
6 Exhaust Port Gaskets
* Victor Reinz
1 Porsche Muffler Gasket
* Victor Reinz
1 Complete Set of Rings
* For Mahle or Kolben Shimdt
* Comes with special break in tips
12 Porsche Piston Pin Clips
* Factory Porsche
* Never reused
6 Porsche Head Copper Shims
* Different thickness
6 Porsche Cylinder Shims
* Victor Reinz
1 Crush Washers 6mm Set
* German Wurth
1 Crush Washers 8mm Set
* German Wurth
1 Lock Nuts 6mm
* German Wurth
1 Lock Nuts 8mm
* German Wurth

Misc. gaskets, O'rings and seals included (all Reinz) made in Germany

Looks pretty complete to me, just add pistons, cams, cyl liners, valves(assuming any or all of them are bad), and you've got a complete comprehensive rebuild.

hoffman912

I am talking full rebuild, and remaufacture, so that everything is as good as new in the motor. these solex carburetors are getting old and need remanufactured. if youre rebuilding an engine and not replacing the clutch youre cutting corners. why would anyone go to all that trouble and not just replace the clutch at the same time? i mean unless you put in a brand new clutch just before the engine blew, then you should probably go ahead and replace it.

mine included top and bottom end, carbs, clutch, exhaust, manifolds, linkage, fuel lines, spark plugs, spark plug wires, cap rotor, condensor, coil, etc etc ect.. powdercoating sheet metal, cermaic coating of headers and exhaust... list goes on. it also included some better than factory parts like light weight pully, cam grind, aluminum oil cooler, full flow oil filter set up. i payed about 6200 in parts alone. minus the upgrades it would have cost about 4500 in parts.

4500 in parts plus about 2000 plus in machine work will cost just around the estimate i gave.

if you send it out to a shop to have them rebuild it, add their labor.

m21sniper

"I am talking full rebuild, and remaufacture, so that everything is as good as new in the motor. these solex carburetors are getting old and need remanufactured. if youre rebuilding an engine and not replacing the clutch youre cutting corners. why would anyone go to all that trouble and not just replace the clutch at the same time? i mean unless you put in a brand new clutch just before the engine blew, then you should probably go ahead and replace it."

Agreed...but that's all above and beyond an engine rebuild.

You're pretty much to the level of a driveline rebuild, and then, yes, i'd agree your price was pretty close to about right.

I was a mechanic. To me 'engine rebuild' is much different than a comprehensive driveline overhaul. Thousands of $$$$ different. A performance rebuild(which is what it sounds like you did), is even more $$$$.

Miscommunication...my appologies.

(but at least we know exactly what you mean when you quoted the prices to the author of the thread, or rather, a prospective 911 owner will at least know what you mean)

"mine included top and bottom end, carbs, clutch, exhaust, manifolds, linkage, fuel lines, spark plugs, spark plug wires, cap rotor, condensor, coil, etc etc ect.. powdercoating sheet metal, cermaic coating of headers and exhaust... list goes on. it also included some better than factory parts like light weight pully, cam grind, aluminum oil cooler, full flow oil filter set up. i payed about 6200 in parts alone. minus the upgrades it would have cost about 4500 in parts."

You basically rebuilt the car it sounds like. I bet it's REALLY nice.

Can i get a ride?

When i bought my 928S i fully expected to just tidy it up and resell it for a 100% profit. I had NO IDEA until i started looking into it just how economical the parts would be. It turned out that i kept it, and now, 3 years later, it's cost me less to own than the typical just out of warranty Ford vehicle would for an equal amount of mileage.

I love my Porsche. Best car i've ever owned...even if it's not the fastest(that honor goes to my 1968 ZZ4 powered LeMans).

My advice to any potential Porsche buyer is don't let cost of ownership scare you. These cars are no more complex than your typical sports car, and the parts are actually really reasonable if you're willing to buy online or have access to wholesale parts houses(which generally are even cheaper than Porsche specific parts sources).

As far as worrying about who's gonna 'look down on you', that's just silly. A lot of 911 guys look down on 928s because it's got a big front engine water cooled V-8(very un-Porsch-ah).

I could care less what anyone thinks.