1986 911 Euro suspension refresh UPDATE May 2016
09-01-2015, 06:13 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
1986 911 Euro suspension refresh UPDATE May 2016
I have my new-to-me 1986 Euro 911 finally on the road and am really enjoying it! BTW, if you're interested, I posted an interior detail thread in the 993 forum - I always enjoy these types of before and after threads that motivate me to take on projects... https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...with-pics.html
Anyway, back on topic, the suspension is tired and needs a complete re-fresh (shocks leaking, bushings shot, etc.) at 180,000 KM.
In terms of intended use, this will never see any track. I am looking for tight, good handling, no sqeaks, reasonably comfortable on average roads - will be driven in town and some spirited country drives. Have new Conti DW extreme tires mounted. I know this is subjective, so to be clear, I am not looking for soft or floaty - I like to feel the road and "tight" is probably the best description of what I am looking for. Just not jarring or harsh on real city roads.
I was looking at Elephant Racing's suspension builder app - specifically the base 'Restoration' kit with Bilstein HD front and rear, rubber throughout. Looks pretty complete, but does not include new torsion bars. For those that have experience with this, I have a few questions:
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspen...packages.htm#a
- Any thoughts on this particular package?
- What about the torsion bars - would you replace them at this point?
- How much stiffer if at all?
- What would you do differently or potentially upgrade for this type of street use?
- Anything else, besides a good alignment?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts - would like to 'do this once, do it right' .
Cheers
Matt
Anyway, back on topic, the suspension is tired and needs a complete re-fresh (shocks leaking, bushings shot, etc.) at 180,000 KM.
In terms of intended use, this will never see any track. I am looking for tight, good handling, no sqeaks, reasonably comfortable on average roads - will be driven in town and some spirited country drives. Have new Conti DW extreme tires mounted. I know this is subjective, so to be clear, I am not looking for soft or floaty - I like to feel the road and "tight" is probably the best description of what I am looking for. Just not jarring or harsh on real city roads.
I was looking at Elephant Racing's suspension builder app - specifically the base 'Restoration' kit with Bilstein HD front and rear, rubber throughout. Looks pretty complete, but does not include new torsion bars. For those that have experience with this, I have a few questions:
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspen...packages.htm#a
- Any thoughts on this particular package?
- What about the torsion bars - would you replace them at this point?
- How much stiffer if at all?
- What would you do differently or potentially upgrade for this type of street use?
- Anything else, besides a good alignment?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts - would like to 'do this once, do it right' .
Cheers
Matt
Last edited by Matt Lane; 04-30-2016 at 06:59 PM.
09-02-2015, 09:03 AM
#2
I have my new-to-me 1986 Euro 911 finally on the road and am really enjoying it! BTW, if you're interested, I posted an interior detail thread in the 993 forum - I always enjoy these types of before and after threads that motivate me to take on projects... https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...with-pics.html
Anyway, back on topic, the suspension is tired and needs a complete re-fresh (shocks leaking, bushings shot, etc.) at 180,000 KM.
In terms of intended use, this will never see any track. I am looking for tight, good handling, no sqeaks, reasonably comfortable on average roads - will be driven in town and some spirited country drives. Have new Conti DW extreme tires mounted. I know this is subjective, so to be clear, I am not looking for soft or floaty - I like to feel the road and "tight" is probably the best description of what I am looking for. Just not jarring or harsh on real city roads.
I was looking at Elephant Racing's suspension builder app - specifically the base 'Restoration' kit with Bilstein HD front and rear, rubber throughout. Looks pretty complete, but does not include new torsion bars. For those that have experience with this, I have a few questions:
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspen...packages.htm#a
- Any thoughts on this particular package?
- What about the torsion bars - would you replace them at this point?
- How much stiffer if at all?
- What would you do differently or potentially upgrade for this type of street use?
- Anything else, besides a good alignment?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts - would like to 'do this once, do it right' .
Cheers
Matt
Anyway, back on topic, the suspension is tired and needs a complete re-fresh (shocks leaking, bushings shot, etc.) at 180,000 KM.
In terms of intended use, this will never see any track. I am looking for tight, good handling, no sqeaks, reasonably comfortable on average roads - will be driven in town and some spirited country drives. Have new Conti DW extreme tires mounted. I know this is subjective, so to be clear, I am not looking for soft or floaty - I like to feel the road and "tight" is probably the best description of what I am looking for. Just not jarring or harsh on real city roads.
I was looking at Elephant Racing's suspension builder app - specifically the base 'Restoration' kit with Bilstein HD front and rear, rubber throughout. Looks pretty complete, but does not include new torsion bars. For those that have experience with this, I have a few questions:
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspen...packages.htm#a
- Any thoughts on this particular package?
- What about the torsion bars - would you replace them at this point?
- How much stiffer if at all?
- What would you do differently or potentially upgrade for this type of street use?
- Anything else, besides a good alignment?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts - would like to 'do this once, do it right' .
Cheers
Matt
As to increasing the t-bars sizes, that's going to depend, Stock Bilstein is a very nice all around setup, you do get more body roll than I like but then I am used to a full RSR suspension on my 993, Having owned my C3 for almost 40 years I never felt the need for bigger t-bars but now that I am used to stiffer full race suspensions I start thinking, maybe. The question is where does it become too stiff for all around non track use.
09-02-2015, 11:17 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
We did every combo (albeit without matched dampers) in the '80s and '90s, and it pretty much came down to both me and the customers being happiest with just doing 26 or 27 mm rear bars in a street weight car.
09-02-2015, 11:33 AM
#4
Addict
I like that package for a "restoration". You will be amazed at how much more under control your car will feel. This is basically where I went first with my suspension.
To this day all my bushings are rubber as my wife thinks she should ride along.
To do mine over, I would have gone directly to Bilstein Sport shocks. Remember that you need to know if you've got Bilstein or Boge struts up front. The inserts are different.
If you want to experience what a real 911 is supposed to feel like go to 21/29 and lower the suspension by 12-18mm and use the Sports. I can not tell you how much this transformed my car. It was night and day. Can not fathom why such a capable sports car was given any other suspension than the 21/29 combo so many of us enjoy now.
Before you go too crazy make sure your rear sway bar mounts are good and solid and your wheel bearings, brake lines, and C/V joints are good. Nothing is worse than getting half way through a project only to find other distractions on your to-do list or discovering that you have to go back in and pay twice.
Things like strut braces and adjustable drop links can wait.
To this day all my bushings are rubber as my wife thinks she should ride along.
To do mine over, I would have gone directly to Bilstein Sport shocks. Remember that you need to know if you've got Bilstein or Boge struts up front. The inserts are different.
If you want to experience what a real 911 is supposed to feel like go to 21/29 and lower the suspension by 12-18mm and use the Sports. I can not tell you how much this transformed my car. It was night and day. Can not fathom why such a capable sports car was given any other suspension than the 21/29 combo so many of us enjoy now.
Before you go too crazy make sure your rear sway bar mounts are good and solid and your wheel bearings, brake lines, and C/V joints are good. Nothing is worse than getting half way through a project only to find other distractions on your to-do list or discovering that you have to go back in and pay twice.
Things like strut braces and adjustable drop links can wait.
09-02-2015, 12:24 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone. It really does look like a subjective decision as to how stiff is too stiff.
I think even more important is balance and having all the parts work together as a whole. As an example my Euro M030/Bilstein HD combo with 18 inch stiff tires on the 993 is really suboptimal kit - not really stiff at all, and surprsingly harsh considering.
I will solicit some more input, and then give the folks at ER a call in terms of getting a good package put together. I am curious about the difference between HD and Sports in this application.
If I were going to 26 or 27 rears to be on the 'comfortable' side, would interesting to see the front rates that would yield the nearest delta in front to back. Assuming that matters.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...rsion_bars.htm
Cheers
Matt
I think even more important is balance and having all the parts work together as a whole. As an example my Euro M030/Bilstein HD combo with 18 inch stiff tires on the 993 is really suboptimal kit - not really stiff at all, and surprsingly harsh considering.
I will solicit some more input, and then give the folks at ER a call in terms of getting a good package put together. I am curious about the difference between HD and Sports in this application.
If I were going to 26 or 27 rears to be on the 'comfortable' side, would interesting to see the front rates that would yield the nearest delta in front to back. Assuming that matters.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...rsion_bars.htm
Cheers
Matt
09-02-2015, 12:36 PM
#6
Addict
Altering the front/rear spring rate combinations is how folks dial in over/under steer to their need or desire. Every application is different. You may want to dial out some oversteer. I have to credit Ed Hughes, Steve Weiner, and Rebel Racing with helping me with my target rates. I think 22 may be too stiff for the street.
09-02-2015, 12:47 PM
#7
Call and talk to Elephant. I have been dealing with them (Chuck) for the suspension on my 89 anniversary Carrera 3.2. He has been WONDERFUL to deal with. For me (street car) we did not discuss torsion bars yet, and I went all rubber. I have learned (through him and a few others) that IF you want to go low..the Bilsti's only go so low, before they get choppy, because of their long tubes and bump stops. I have heard the Koni's can go a little lower (front is the issue, not the rear). Again though, talk to Chuck.
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09-02-2015, 01:30 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thanks everyone. It really does look like a subjective decision as to how stiff is too stiff.
I think even more important is balance and having all the parts work together as a whole. As an example my Euro M030/Bilstein HD combo with 18 inch stiff tires on the 993 is really suboptimal kit - not really stiff at all, and surprsingly harsh considering.
I will solicit some more input, and then give the folks at ER a call in terms of getting a good package put together. I am curious about the difference between HD and Sports in this application.
If I were going to 26 or 27 rears to be on the 'comfortable' side, would interesting to see the front rates that would yield the nearest delta in front to back. Assuming that matters.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...rsion_bars.htm
Cheers
Matt
I think even more important is balance and having all the parts work together as a whole. As an example my Euro M030/Bilstein HD combo with 18 inch stiff tires on the 993 is really suboptimal kit - not really stiff at all, and surprsingly harsh considering.
I will solicit some more input, and then give the folks at ER a call in terms of getting a good package put together. I am curious about the difference between HD and Sports in this application.
If I were going to 26 or 27 rears to be on the 'comfortable' side, would interesting to see the front rates that would yield the nearest delta in front to back. Assuming that matters.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...rsion_bars.htm
Cheers
Matt
Again, it's all about damping. Just call Steve Weiner and have him fix you up with some revalved Bilsteins. Bolting stuff on out of the box is not necessary in today's world/knowledge base. (Hence, why you're dissatisfied with the 993.)
And the 19/26 torsion bars were OE on the 930, and nearly so on the G50 911s.
My "best" street torsion bar car was the '79 SC with the 3.5L/7:31 R&P. I settled in on just doing 19/26, as I was bumming around for a year post-law school and pre-buying the call center. Drove the car over 25K miles from AZ to WA doing track events, etc. in under a year.
09-02-2015, 04:21 PM
#9
Thanks everyone. It really does look like a subjective decision as to how stiff is too stiff.
I think even more important is balance and having all the parts work together as a whole. As an example my Euro M030/Bilstein HD combo with 18 inch stiff tires on the 993 is really suboptimal kit - not really stiff at all, and surprsingly harsh considering.
I will solicit some more input, and then give the folks at ER a call in terms of getting a good package put together. I am curious about the difference between HD and Sports in this application.
If I were going to 26 or 27 rears to be on the 'comfortable' side, would interesting to see the front rates that would yield the nearest delta in front to back. Assuming that matters.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...rsion_bars.htm
Cheers
Matt
I think even more important is balance and having all the parts work together as a whole. As an example my Euro M030/Bilstein HD combo with 18 inch stiff tires on the 993 is really suboptimal kit - not really stiff at all, and surprsingly harsh considering.
I will solicit some more input, and then give the folks at ER a call in terms of getting a good package put together. I am curious about the difference between HD and Sports in this application.
If I were going to 26 or 27 rears to be on the 'comfortable' side, would interesting to see the front rates that would yield the nearest delta in front to back. Assuming that matters.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...rsion_bars.htm
Cheers
Matt
I have also used Bilstein Sport all around and currently use hd front/sport rear
sport all around is ok for track use but too stiff on the street
hd front/sport rear also works well on the street
a digressive revalve matched to T-bars and car weight would be a very nice way to go if you can get it, I believe that Elephant car revalve Bilsteins, don't know if the digressive valves are available, they should be.
If the car doesn't have Bilstein struts it's worth buying them, Bilstein inserts in Boge or other struts only provides half the benefit.
09-02-2015, 09:49 PM
#10
Intermediate
Matt,
On my 1986, I just changed the 4 shocks (Bilsten HD) so all the rest is stock and probably original. The car was also lowered (lower than Euro) Drop me a note if you want to test that "basic" change!
On my 1986, I just changed the 4 shocks (Bilsten HD) so all the rest is stock and probably original. The car was also lowered (lower than Euro) Drop me a note if you want to test that "basic" change!
09-02-2015, 11:11 PM
#11
Drifting
Matt,
Ian sent his Bilsteins to Steve Weiner for a rebuild/revalve and he also bought my 21/29 hollow
torsion bars after i installed 23/31's on my 911 ...
You might want his opinion as his car is a street car as much as a DE car
He also installed the Wevo mounts i told you about !
Just sayin ...
Cheers
Phil
Ian sent his Bilsteins to Steve Weiner for a rebuild/revalve and he also bought my 21/29 hollow
torsion bars after i installed 23/31's on my 911 ...
You might want his opinion as his car is a street car as much as a DE car
He also installed the Wevo mounts i told you about !
Just sayin ...
Cheers
Phil
09-03-2015, 04:01 PM
#12
Instructor
I went with sport front and rear, stock torsion bars on the '85 ROW. I love the set up on smooth roads
The wife has a different opinion. I definitely wouldn't want the sports in a town like Chicago, but on Wisconsin back roads it's perfectly dialed in. A less sticky tire might make it a little more fun.
The wife has a different opinion. I definitely wouldn't want the sports in a town like Chicago, but on Wisconsin back roads it's perfectly dialed in. A less sticky tire might make it a little more fun.
09-03-2015, 08:29 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for the input. I spoke to Chuck at ER and am thinking all rubber, HD's, and maybe an upgrade to 21/27 tbars. Still want to talk to a few more folks, but feel like I'm in the zone.
A few follow ups:
I've heard only good things about Sanders. Any thoughts comparing w/ Swayaway? They are apparently the same price, though delivery times may differ.
And
Bill, can you please elaborate?
Best,
Matt
A few follow ups:
I've heard only good things about Sanders. Any thoughts comparing w/ Swayaway? They are apparently the same price, though delivery times may differ.
And
Best,
Matt
09-04-2015, 02:50 AM
#14
Addict
Steve Weiner and Chuck say they are the best so they are the best....end of discussion.
I went to Bilstein, Poway and talked to a guy named Juan. I got custom valving to match my spring rate, new 14mm rods cut, seals, oil, rubber, bumpstops, serial numbers, stickers, coilover clips and grooves, and swag for less than the price of new shocks. Basically the only thing that got reused was the body of the shock. Turn around was something like 30 days...may have been longer. You have to tell them that the shocks were "aftermarket" and not "original equipment" or they can't touch them.
http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/s...rvice/service/
Anyway, it can be done for guys like you and me, but certainly buying new HD's is much simpler.
I like your bar choices for a street car with street tires. Seems reasonable.
I went to Bilstein, Poway and talked to a guy named Juan. I got custom valving to match my spring rate, new 14mm rods cut, seals, oil, rubber, bumpstops, serial numbers, stickers, coilover clips and grooves, and swag for less than the price of new shocks. Basically the only thing that got reused was the body of the shock. Turn around was something like 30 days...may have been longer. You have to tell them that the shocks were "aftermarket" and not "original equipment" or they can't touch them.
http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/s...rvice/service/
Anyway, it can be done for guys like you and me, but certainly buying new HD's is much simpler.
I like your bar choices for a street car with street tires. Seems reasonable.
09-04-2015, 08:25 AM
#15
Thanks everyone for the input. I spoke to Chuck at ER and am thinking all rubber, HD's, and maybe an upgrade to 21/27 tbars. Still want to talk to a few more folks, but feel like I'm in the zone.
A few follow ups:
I've heard only good things about Sanders. Any thoughts comparing w/ Swayaway? They are apparently the same price, though delivery times may differ.
And
Bill, can you please elaborate?
Best,
Matt
A few follow ups:
I've heard only good things about Sanders. Any thoughts comparing w/ Swayaway? They are apparently the same price, though delivery times may differ.
And
Bill, can you please elaborate?
Best,
Matt
All others including Bilstein inserts in Boge struts for example have the heavy end of the shock attached to the wheel end and increase unsprung weight.
Less unsprung weight contributes to better wheel control and ride quality.
Bilstein struts are identifiable by the extra roll pin at the bottom of the strut. All 911 struts have the ball joint attached to the strut w a roll pin, Bilstein have another roll pin above that. The other 911 struts secure the inserts in the strut w/ threaded fittings which are not visible until the strut is disassembled.
Bilstein 911 strut w/ both roll pins visible
