rlich8

Hello All:

I have a desire to have an air cooled 911. It would go nicely in my stable and I have kind of always wanted one. I have a '01 M5, a '71 E-Type, and a '01 S2000 convertible. They all fit a special purpose. I'd be willing to dump the S2000 and realize some gains (I bought that car pretty cheap) in favor of the right air cooled P car.

I am looking for a car that is largely original as it pertains to exterior and interior condition. Mechanical issues do not scare me; especially on a robust yet simple product like an air cooled 911. I really do not want to get into a project with a body or an interior; however I wouldn't mind having to rework brakes, suspension, driveline, or ancillary mechanicals.

I have no idea where the market is at. What does $15k get you these days? $20k? $25k? I know things are up, but I don't know what up exactly is.

I guess if I had my druthers I would certainly desire a Targa, and I'd like a silver car, but I'm more concerned with nice solid unmolested metal (paint chips and scratches don't even bother me) than I am with color and options like Targa. I've owned enough old cars and learned how picky I can be...

I presume I'll likely end up with a late 70's or early to mid 80's model; it seems the cars with the G50 transmissions demand a premium and the late 60's and early 70's cars have achieved museum/investment grade (understandably so, my E-Type is the same way).

What do I need to know? I have never owned an air cooled car. I owned a 928 which I got out of. I'd buy another nice 928, but I'd really like the "classic" Porsche experience, and that is one with the engine behind me and no water pump.

Thanks in advance,
Royal

JCP911S

The 3.0L 78-83 SC and 3.2L 84-89 Carrara are the cars to buy.

The 3.2with 915 gearbox generally sells at a $2K or so premium over the 3.0, and the 3.2L g-50 gearbox adds another $2K or so.

IMHO, I'd consider them all equally nice, and buy the best condition car you can find... the SC represents your best value.

In perfect original condition with full documentation and no excuses, these cars are selling in the $30K plus range, and super-low mile cars can go higher, but are not necessarily worth the extra unless you are a collector.

These cars are very robust with few weaknesses, and also have fully galvanized bodies... so any sign of rust is a major red flag.

$15K will get you a project car. $25K will get you a solid driver with some normal mechanical or cosmetic wear and tear.

I would not buy any car with rust or body repair.

Rebuild of an intact engine will cost between $6K (top-end) to $14K (total rebuild), and a factory quality re-paint $5-10K. Also, interior work isn't cheap, but its very feasible, so I would not let a shabby interior of an otherwise nice car dissuade me from buying.

As long as you end up with under $40K in the car, buying a car with needs and restoring it is not a bad approach.

Just for example, say you found a solid, no-rust SC with pulled head studs and worn paint for $15K. You put $6K in the top-end of the engine, new clutch ($1K), brakes($1K), shocks($1K), and paint ($6K), and $4K for odds and ends, you'll end up with a really nice, needs-nothing car for around $35K or so... not a bad deal in today's market.

Lots more info here if you look.

Good Luck.

Starbuckslova1

Id try and shoot for a 3.0 motor car
A solid driver for 25k
Check the pelican forums

Main things to watch out for are oil leaks- especially with the front oil cooler

3.0 is a great motor

Personally id look for like an 1980 carrera sc hardtop or such

Starbuckslova1

There galvanized so rust is minimal

Many need a new dash

Freddie Two Bs

I'm in the same position as you. I've been watching the market for about six months now, and based on my limited opinion what JCP911S is saying is very correct. I would add that SCs and Carreras these days are very hot, which has led to a cottage industry of "flippers" that'll buy a fair-to-mediocre car, give it a hand of wax and put it on sale a week later for 5k to 10k over what they paid. Beware!

Other bits of wisdom:

- read the stickies on the PPI
- Buy a book like those by Streather or Zimmerman
- do a forum search for old threads on SC vs Carrera
- Beware of any car with a Florida title (easiest state to title-wash)
- Targas are usually a better deal than coupes because for some reason most people snub them
- In my humble opinion better to buy a great car at a fair price than a fair car at a great price

rlich8

Love your points, rick brooklyn, and thank you for the bits of wisdom... did not know that Targas get snubbed... good for me as I want a Targa!

Thank you.

JCP911S

I have both. There are "coupe guys" and "targa guys", but generally they sell at roughly the same price points... just to different people. They are both great cars.

The coupe is more structurally solid, and (to my eyes), a more integrated design.

The targa offers top-off driving, but the top and seals are finicky, and require extra maintenance to avoid water leaks.

I'd also make a pitch for the Cab. Unlike most cars where the convertible version sells at a 50-100% premium ("when the top goes down, the price goes up"), 911 Cabs sell at only a slight premium, and IMHO, this pricing gap won't last, and represents a nice investment opportunity.

KDRGibby

I think the Targa sells for less than the Coupe and the Cab is cheaper still.

rlich8

I think the coupe is the way that Ferry Porsche originally thought of the car. Certainly the purist's choice. Though, I admittedly have a penchant for Targas. I had a Triumph with a targa top and despite the extra work to keep that thing sealed up and even just installing/removing the top, there's something that tickles me about it's aesthetics. Plus, I think the Porsche Targa top is a better design than the Triumph variant.

I'm certainly a weekend warrior with my sports cars (other than my M5 which is my daily driver) so the practicality perspective isn't that important. I'll certainly go for a nice coupe if everything else is right about it, but the Targa is just sweet...

Logik

I've been looking for almost a year. I rarely see a fixer upper at all nowadays and rarely anything going for under $20k. Solid cars are $30k, great cars are more, cars with minor issues are $25k. I don't know where the fixer uppers have gone. A few years ago, fixer uppers were all over the place for $10-$15k. I guess they've all been fixed up now. I'm looking at pretty much every site. I think you need to go old school and check print publications.

tcsracing1

id look for a 78-83SC... Im not a targa guy however, two words come to mind; rattle box.

JCP911S

Unfortunately, the SC/Carrara are on the collector car radar, and the market is adjusting... not a lot of bargains anymore, and these are the price-points.

I'd also consider a 993... IMHO this is the 'sweet-spot" between the traditional pre-'89 911 and the water-cooled cars.... the 3.6 is a phenomenal motor, the styling is timeless, and it is also very usable day to day with heat/and A/C.

These rarely sell below $35-40K, but with nice 3.2s moving into this price range now... the 993 looks like a very good buy right now, but they're going up too.

tcsracing1

agreed.
SC's are on the rise. The lower priced examples are due for refreshing.
3.2's are indeed on the move and are getting closer to 993 market.

993 is a really nice 911 and examples for under 40k can be had. They do everything really well.

These may very well be just old cars, but they are special. All it takes is a drive in one and you will understand. Good clean fun

autobonrun

Another forum generalization. I've been in coupes, targas, and cabs that squeak. Likewise I've been in those that are quiet with no rattles what so ever. Usually generalizations, whether about cars or people, fall short of the truth. After 31 years with a Targa and two other current Porsche coupes, I'm also in a pretty good position to offer a different opinion that if a Porsche is well maintained, rattles and squeaks are a non issue. A poorly maintained coupe will rattle. The targa design is fairly stiff; not as stiff as a coupe but stiff enough to track. The rattles and squeaks I've heard in 911's typically comes from the dash, and last time I checked, even the coupes have a dash. 993 coupe windows sometimes creak; check all the threads about adding rope under the rubber window seal to reduce the creaking. I agree that a Targa has more points that can creak, it doesn't mean that they have to. It's an individual car issue; not a general problem.

If you happen upon a car that hasn't been maintained or is poorly built, you'll get the rattles you describe. But a general statement that's this off base just confuses individuals new to the marque. Typically Porsches, all types, are surprisingly quiet even after 35 years.

Rlich8, with the M5 in your garage, the targa will provide a fun open air experience. I assume it would not be a daily driver. There are certain days in the spring and fall where the targa is my preferred option.

As far as lines, there are those that feel the coupe has the more classic 911 lines, and to that end I think they are right. However, the targa still looks every bit and drives every bit like a SC.

What you will find is that in some ways, the Porsche community is very sheep-like; meaning once the mass tend to lean a certain way, the rest will echo something they've heard and follow along regardless. I've seen it with colors, types of rims, spoilers vs no spoilers, lowered vs not lowered, coupes vs targa vs cabriolet, etc., etc. At one point, mid 70's 911s were blasted for their thermal reactors and pulled head studs; 964's were blasted for leaking heads (initially they didn't have head gaskets). Look at the price of both those models now. The point I'm making is opinions and groupthink can be fickle.

Bottom line, test drive several types, do your own research, draw your own conclusions, and buy the type that you will enjoy and that fits in with the other cars you already own. I for one don't need three coupes. Stay off the sheep path. I will say the targas do have more wind noise. They have lots of seals, and they aren't cheap. Check the condition of all the seals, especially those in the front and back of the top. Make sure the condition of the top is good. A re-skin of the top is about $500.

KDRGibby

Good luck Rich, I spent 14-15 months searching, researching, reading, watching. I looked at several, passed on a few, had a local club member let me test drive one (highly recommended), tried to buy one only to have the owner change his mind (Can't blame him) but finally picked one up Friday.

I started out looking for a SC but ended up with an 88 3.2 Carrera... What a happy accident!!!!




I really thought this would never happen.