Starter mystery...
04-08-2006, 01:26 AM
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Starter mystery...
My 85 Carrera has 309,000 miles (half mine in 7 years) on original engine so I've seen a few starter woes but this one seems unfathomable...
My last starter (Bosch replacement 2-1/2 years ago) was flawless until began the quiet "click" thing last weekend which usually signals that the solenoid pin has developed a shoulder which doesn't let the mechanism fully return. The unwary may get results with this problem by bashing on the starter, but often just a change in temperature as car cools down, or vibration of the engine, can free this problem. I learned (ha!) never to let a shop rebuild your existing starter - better to get a different unit - as they rarely replace or inspect this pin, which in a bind you can grind away a bit to remove the sharp lip that catches.
So rather than mess with it, this time I got a rebuild from my local Porsche dealer for about $200 and stuffed it in last Monday. The thing cranked fine & noticeably faster than the retired unit and all seemed well. Then darn it yesterday it started the "click" thing, it would start 5 times in a row then... "click." One time today, multiple key turns let it catch, but rocking the car in 5th gear seemed to clear it best, but now tonight it now just clicks and won't free up to start the car at all.
Under car tonight (so much for Friday night on the town), all looks good & tight, ignition off, I jumpered directly from hot main starter wire to the solenoid contact with the official solenoid/ignition wire switch wire both on and off and SAME THING, just a click, drawing a good bit of current through solenoid but not kicking in at all. Voltage drops to 11.5V min with the solenoid jumpered and "trying" (i.e., a permanently clicked state so to speak) measured at the starter, back to 12.6V no load, and alternator o/p is in 13-14V range with engine running as measured in cockpit. No shorts to chassis, good engine & battery ground straps, battery terms clean and tight. Solenoid wire from switch measures 125ohms to ground at disconnected-from-starter end, but seeing as a short jumper directly at starter does no better, it isn't that anyway even if the switch is getting a bit old & funky.
So I guess the questions are - first, has anyone ever had a problem with the rebuilt starters from Porsche dealers? I'm about to pull the bloody thing out and see if the solenoid pin is notched, that's what it seems like to me at the moment. But to replace a starter, have it work like gangbusters for 5 days then go same way as old unit is mind boggling. So second, any ideas, anyone? Thanks!
My last starter (Bosch replacement 2-1/2 years ago) was flawless until began the quiet "click" thing last weekend which usually signals that the solenoid pin has developed a shoulder which doesn't let the mechanism fully return. The unwary may get results with this problem by bashing on the starter, but often just a change in temperature as car cools down, or vibration of the engine, can free this problem. I learned (ha!) never to let a shop rebuild your existing starter - better to get a different unit - as they rarely replace or inspect this pin, which in a bind you can grind away a bit to remove the sharp lip that catches.
So rather than mess with it, this time I got a rebuild from my local Porsche dealer for about $200 and stuffed it in last Monday. The thing cranked fine & noticeably faster than the retired unit and all seemed well. Then darn it yesterday it started the "click" thing, it would start 5 times in a row then... "click." One time today, multiple key turns let it catch, but rocking the car in 5th gear seemed to clear it best, but now tonight it now just clicks and won't free up to start the car at all.
Under car tonight (so much for Friday night on the town), all looks good & tight, ignition off, I jumpered directly from hot main starter wire to the solenoid contact with the official solenoid/ignition wire switch wire both on and off and SAME THING, just a click, drawing a good bit of current through solenoid but not kicking in at all. Voltage drops to 11.5V min with the solenoid jumpered and "trying" (i.e., a permanently clicked state so to speak) measured at the starter, back to 12.6V no load, and alternator o/p is in 13-14V range with engine running as measured in cockpit. No shorts to chassis, good engine & battery ground straps, battery terms clean and tight. Solenoid wire from switch measures 125ohms to ground at disconnected-from-starter end, but seeing as a short jumper directly at starter does no better, it isn't that anyway even if the switch is getting a bit old & funky.
So I guess the questions are - first, has anyone ever had a problem with the rebuilt starters from Porsche dealers? I'm about to pull the bloody thing out and see if the solenoid pin is notched, that's what it seems like to me at the moment. But to replace a starter, have it work like gangbusters for 5 days then go same way as old unit is mind boggling. So second, any ideas, anyone? Thanks!
04-09-2006, 09:06 AM
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maybe bad high current lcable, you may need to use a storage scope to see the instant you hit the starter and what the voltage drops to. The current is 5x starting current at locked rotor, but may drop down with your issue.
------- like you have a storage scope, seems like it is time to replace cable@300K, all sounds too weird.
------- like you have a storage scope, seems like it is time to replace cable@300K, all sounds too weird.
04-09-2006, 09:13 AM
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Unless concours is an issue, use a reduction-gear starter: smaller, lighter, higher crank rpms, less draw.
My first though was the cables/battery as well. Mabye the flywheel teeth are rounded and it's getting stuck there(just a wild thought)? I've seen a new Bosch dist cap with 0 continuity and think the overpriced platinum plugs were a real scam, but many of their products have worked well. I'm stumped.
My first though was the cables/battery as well. Mabye the flywheel teeth are rounded and it's getting stuck there(just a wild thought)? I've seen a new Bosch dist cap with 0 continuity and think the overpriced platinum plugs were a real scam, but many of their products have worked well. I'm stumped.
04-09-2006, 09:19 AM
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Unless concours is an issue, use a reduction-gear starter: smaller, lighter, higher crank rpms, less draw.
My first though was the cables/battery as well. Mabye the flywheel teeth are rounded and it's getting stuck there(just a wild thought)? I've seen a new Bosch dist cap with 0 continuity and think the overpriced platinum plugs were a real scam, but many of their products have worked well.
I'm stumped.
Try doing a voltage drop across the ends of the "+" cable(batt term to starter term) while starting the engine to see if any is dropped while the cable is heavily loaded. Could be internal cable as redtdi96 suggested.
My first though was the cables/battery as well. Mabye the flywheel teeth are rounded and it's getting stuck there(just a wild thought)? I've seen a new Bosch dist cap with 0 continuity and think the overpriced platinum plugs were a real scam, but many of their products have worked well.
I'm stumped.
Try doing a voltage drop across the ends of the "+" cable(batt term to starter term) while starting the engine to see if any is dropped while the cable is heavily loaded. Could be internal cable as redtdi96 suggested.
04-10-2006, 02:06 PM
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That is a great idea
Actually I do have a storage scope... Unfortunately I left for Louisiana on biz Sun so will have to wait to return to do this test, that is a great idea I wish I'd though of that! Insulation test was good (I have other e-toys) and there's enough slack to reterm the cable in case of a corroded lug.
Before I left and after my 1st post I did pull the whole thing out and I determined that the solenoid is weak by testing it with a large variable power supply. Removed from the starter, it couldn't even pull itself in reliably unless more than 12.5V, and either intermittent or a pathetic clunk below that, so no wonder it had trouble getting the starter spindle to pop out of its detent. But now of course I wonder why the solenoid went bad... ....leads back to question about rebuild experiences... ...the high torque unit as suggested by other herein looks like the way to go - it's only $$$$$$$$!
Will still test the cable per your suggestion, as 300k is territory even my shop hasn't seen, although we've all heard of 350k to 400k cars. (If only the 915 was like the engine...)
Thank you
Before I left and after my 1st post I did pull the whole thing out and I determined that the solenoid is weak by testing it with a large variable power supply. Removed from the starter, it couldn't even pull itself in reliably unless more than 12.5V, and either intermittent or a pathetic clunk below that, so no wonder it had trouble getting the starter spindle to pop out of its detent. But now of course I wonder why the solenoid went bad... ....leads back to question about rebuild experiences... ...the high torque unit as suggested by other herein looks like the way to go - it's only $$$$$$$$!
Will still test the cable per your suggestion, as 300k is territory even my shop hasn't seen, although we've all heard of 350k to 400k cars. (If only the 915 was like the engine...)
Thank you
Originally Posted by redtdi96
maybe bad high current lcable, you may need to use a storage scope to see the instant you hit the starter and what the voltage drops to. The current is 5x starting current at locked rotor, but may drop down with your issue.
------- like you have a storage scope, seems like it is time to replace cable@300K, all sounds too weird.
------- like you have a storage scope, seems like it is time to replace cable@300K, all sounds too weird.
04-10-2006, 02:43 PM
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John70t & rstarga - Thank you, I looked at those a few years back during previous starter woes, but had no owner feedback then. It sounds as though you both have experience of the alternative (Japanese, right?) starter - I forget the brand/name, but AJ-USA (local to me) used to carry them - is there more than one version of these units? Are they as easy/easier to install as the original? That seems to me like a great solution, and the extra bucks don't amount to much if one has to spend hours under the car, or have it back in the shop to get a Bosch that works (my last starter was a new Bosch - flawless op for three years) - While occasionally non-Porschies ask if car is new (they don't look throught the windows at the interior!) after it's been detailed, it is certainly not (and unless you can detail the engine with a Sonicare toothbrush & a pressure washer, will never be) concours!
Cable test great idea regardless, redtdi96's post added a good method (for those of us electronics nerds with weird test equipment.)
I think you are onto something re pinion getting stuck - while the starter ring still looks good (it was replaced last time the 915/clutch was worked on) there WAS a bunch of crud in the cavity the pinion enters (cleaned out now) which may have resulted in overheating the solenoid as it tried to push the starter spindle out yet before it was far enough actuated to engage the solenoid contacts. I admit I kept the key turned a few seconds more than once during my investigations which may have heat-damaged the solenoid windings, explaining why it is now so weak, and this might indeed explain the whole thing. If so it means it is unwise to keep the solenoid energized for any longer than necessary - a bit too close to Duh!
Re Bosch, I had no trouble with NEW parts from Porsche dealers or OEM sources, but it's rebuilt starters that seem to trouble no matter where they are from. But I am leaning towards the pinion sticking/jamming into crud in the case - I think your suggestion has cracked to cause and fits all the stuff that's happened. I guess 300k leads to it's own unique little problems, and crud in your pinion cavity may be one of them.
Anyway when I get back back home I'll see if the dealer will take back the starter (you never know) or offer me a replacement (maybe) and if I can bench test the unit to my satifaction, I'll maybe try that - otherwise I'm going to for the high-torque unit - am I right to assume you both recommend it from personal experience?
Thank you both (and all) for your input.
[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=john70t]Unless concours is an issue, use a reduction-gear starter: smaller, lighter, higher crank rpms, less draw.
My first though was the cables/battery as well. Mabye the flywheel teeth are rounded and it's getting stuck there(just a wild thought)? I've seen a new Bosch dist cap with 0 continuity and think the overpriced platinum plugs were a real scam, but many of their products have worked well.
I'm stumped.
Try doing a voltage drop across the ends of the "+" cable(batt term to starter term) while starting the engine to see if any is dropped while the cable is heavily loaded. Could be internal cable as redtdi96 suggested.
Cable test great idea regardless, redtdi96's post added a good method (for those of us electronics nerds with weird test equipment.)
I think you are onto something re pinion getting stuck - while the starter ring still looks good (it was replaced last time the 915/clutch was worked on) there WAS a bunch of crud in the cavity the pinion enters (cleaned out now) which may have resulted in overheating the solenoid as it tried to push the starter spindle out yet before it was far enough actuated to engage the solenoid contacts. I admit I kept the key turned a few seconds more than once during my investigations which may have heat-damaged the solenoid windings, explaining why it is now so weak, and this might indeed explain the whole thing. If so it means it is unwise to keep the solenoid energized for any longer than necessary - a bit too close to Duh!
Re Bosch, I had no trouble with NEW parts from Porsche dealers or OEM sources, but it's rebuilt starters that seem to trouble no matter where they are from. But I am leaning towards the pinion sticking/jamming into crud in the case - I think your suggestion has cracked to cause and fits all the stuff that's happened. I guess 300k leads to it's own unique little problems, and crud in your pinion cavity may be one of them.
Anyway when I get back back home I'll see if the dealer will take back the starter (you never know) or offer me a replacement (maybe) and if I can bench test the unit to my satifaction, I'll maybe try that - otherwise I'm going to for the high-torque unit - am I right to assume you both recommend it from personal experience?
Thank you both (and all) for your input.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=john70t]Unless concours is an issue, use a reduction-gear starter: smaller, lighter, higher crank rpms, less draw.
My first though was the cables/battery as well. Mabye the flywheel teeth are rounded and it's getting stuck there(just a wild thought)? I've seen a new Bosch dist cap with 0 continuity and think the overpriced platinum plugs were a real scam, but many of their products have worked well.
I'm stumped.
Try doing a voltage drop across the ends of the "+" cable(batt term to starter term) while starting the engine to see if any is dropped while the cable is heavily loaded. Could be internal cable as redtdi96 suggested.
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04-10-2006, 02:54 PM
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Correction
I guess another unique little problem with 300k is my writing "I guess 300k leads to IT'S own unique little problems" instead of "...ITS own unique little problems."
My apologies from any grammatic offense caused thereby.
My apologies from any grammatic offense caused thereby.
04-10-2006, 03:17 PM
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...and think the overpriced platinum plugs were a real scam...
BTW ,both my mechanics after trying many different plugs in my car and other 3.2 Carreras, feel the regular plugs work best, and don't recommend platinum or split/multi electrodeplugs at all any more. I forget the reason now, unfortunately (is this really an age thing?) but it definitely made great sense when they explained it to me - for Bosch platinum it might have been something like the self-cleaning/long life claims weren't realized at least for this type of 911 in regular form - my car is completely standard in the engine dept. unless silicon plug wires and a two-wire 02 sensor are considered performance mods ;-)
BTW ,both my mechanics after trying many different plugs in my car and other 3.2 Carreras, feel the regular plugs work best, and don't recommend platinum or split/multi electrodeplugs at all any more. I forget the reason now, unfortunately (is this really an age thing?) but it definitely made great sense when they explained it to me - for Bosch platinum it might have been something like the self-cleaning/long life claims weren't realized at least for this type of 911 in regular form - my car is completely standard in the engine dept. unless silicon plug wires and a two-wire 02 sensor are considered performance mods ;-)
04-12-2006, 07:27 AM
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Starter Mystery
Hi,
I am new to Rennlist and scanned quickly starter problem and responses: I fixed the same problem (300k, new starter, click, used a high tork aftermarket till it wore out,etc.) I decided it was not meshing with the gear ring for some reason, so I made a shim from sheet metal and put it between the starter and the tranny housing. It worked.
I am new to Rennlist and scanned quickly starter problem and responses: I fixed the same problem (300k, new starter, click, used a high tork aftermarket till it wore out,etc.) I decided it was not meshing with the gear ring for some reason, so I made a shim from sheet metal and put it between the starter and the tranny housing. It worked.
01-28-2012, 05:33 AM
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I should have just tried what you said back then - I just never could get the cable to fail when I was testing it. Figures...
01-28-2012, 08:12 PM
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In my defense, I can only offer that car was off the road 3-1/2 years for a rebuild! And is off again now for a 3.6 transplant, the 3.2 only lasted a 1/3-million miles 
It apparently is, and EXACTLY why I only replaced the lugs at both ends, after I'd done an insulation test on the rest of the cable after removing the originals 
01-28-2012, 09:41 PM
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Think i'l be doing that too... that must have been quite the soldering job, got any pics ? I wouldnt have thought solder would have been strong enough