13/13 rule........
04-03-2008, 10:16 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
13/13 rule........
can someone please give me the bottom line version of it?
Who makes the final call on enforcing it?
Does it really deter what it was designed for?
For the people who have been sanctioned for it, was it deserved?
Thanks again....
Who makes the final call on enforcing it?
Does it really deter what it was designed for?
For the people who have been sanctioned for it, was it deserved?
Thanks again....
04-03-2008, 10:36 PM
#4
I think the rulebook clearly defines who enforces it.
Does it deter? I think that's up to each individual person to decide for themselves.
Was it deserved? When I got a 13, it was.
Does it deter? I think that's up to each individual person to decide for themselves.
Was it deserved? When I got a 13, it was.
04-03-2008, 10:37 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
can someone please give me the bottom line version of it?
If you have contact and do any damage to your car AND you are deemed "at fault" you get 13 months on probation. Do it again during those 13 months, and you get a 13 month holiday. At fault is determined by the steward(s) at the event. They use corner worker reports, reports from the racer(s) involved, witness account(s) and video(s). They also look at the cars to see if the damage matches the stories.
Who makes the final call on enforcing it?
The steward(s) at the event
Does it really deter what it was designed for?
I say yes.
For the people who have been sanctioned for it, was it deserved?
I would say that 95% of 13s are deserved, including my own. The only reason I leave the 5% is that we are all human, so I am sure that some mistakes are made, especially when the witness testimony is not accurate and there's no video. So run your camera!
If you have contact and do any damage to your car AND you are deemed "at fault" you get 13 months on probation. Do it again during those 13 months, and you get a 13 month holiday. At fault is determined by the steward(s) at the event. They use corner worker reports, reports from the racer(s) involved, witness account(s) and video(s). They also look at the cars to see if the damage matches the stories.
Who makes the final call on enforcing it?
The steward(s) at the event
Does it really deter what it was designed for?
I say yes.
For the people who have been sanctioned for it, was it deserved?
I would say that 95% of 13s are deserved, including my own. The only reason I leave the 5% is that we are all human, so I am sure that some mistakes are made, especially when the witness testimony is not accurate and there's no video. So run your camera!
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04-04-2008, 09:00 AM
#8
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Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Once you get yours it clearly slows you down. I joined NASA as a back up and cut way back on PCA. Noe I run more NASA and I am off probation.
Remember only 30 days to appeal when you get your letter.
Remember only 30 days to appeal when you get your letter.
04-04-2008, 09:59 AM
#9
NASA Racer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
04-04-2008, 10:06 AM
#10
Nordschleife Master
A single 13 puts you on probation, and two 13s out. A steward does have the ability to give out two 13s right away for big issues, and blatant cheating could be one of those situations. Short version, don't cheat!
04-04-2008, 10:08 AM
#11
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Rennlist Lifetime Member
Rennlist Lifetime Member
While I think that the 13/13 rule isn't perfect...it's quite good and overall administered quite well.
The only tweaks that I'd like to see is a different approach on single car incidents (like the guy in front of me at RA who caught a tire in a deep puddle...spun and contacted the tire wall).
I've seen (and been part of) a lot of discussions about allowing for "racing incidents" between cars without a 13 but that's a huge gray area and would be very difficult to manage. I guess that's why it's so vital that we run cameras (which I do...front & rear).
Rick
The only tweaks that I'd like to see is a different approach on single car incidents (like the guy in front of me at RA who caught a tire in a deep puddle...spun and contacted the tire wall).
I've seen (and been part of) a lot of discussions about allowing for "racing incidents" between cars without a 13 but that's a huge gray area and would be very difficult to manage. I guess that's why it's so vital that we run cameras (which I do...front & rear).
Rick
04-04-2008, 10:35 AM
#12
Race Director
You wreck you go home.
You put a dent in the car you go home.
You dent some else's car you go home.
Do that again in 13 months and you are on the sideline for 13 months.
Race stewards
IHMO... not really. I think there are better ways to prevent stupid contact and rubbing.
For some yes... I have seen many get hosed from it.
Most of my races have not been in 13/13 enviroments and I can tell you in 6 years of racing I would have been sent home a few times for single car stuff where I was able to repair the car quickly and lose virtually no track time. Other times very on track contact would have sent one or both of us home, but without a 13/13 both driver could discuss the situation and resolve it without blame or fear of blame. Case in point in my event on that Saturday race. Rolling start down the main straight lined by walls on both sides. I am on the inside a few rows back. We go green and fan out a bit. One car 2 rows in front goes slow and the cars around me start avoiding. I have a run on a car in front and he pinches me torward the wall hard tring to avoid the slower car in front. I get squeezed between the wall and his car. We have a light touch of his rear tire to my front tire. No more damage than a dounut on my car and slightly dented fender. We both avoid further incident and have a great race. We talk about it after and bear no animosity torward each other. It was just one of those cases where crap happens we both did our best to clear the situation in front of us. I guess there could have been 13/13's passed around for that, but what would it have gained? He did nothing stupid, I did nothing stupid. I guess you could give 13 to the driver who missed the shift, but it turns out he had a mechanical issue anyway. So in the end we worked it out betweent the two of us and still had a great race the next day. I expect to see him out at the track this Saturday for our next race and have no issues racing next to him again.
So what benefit would there have been throwing a 13/13 around anyway.
You put a dent in the car you go home.
You dent some else's car you go home.
Do that again in 13 months and you are on the sideline for 13 months.
Race stewards
IHMO... not really. I think there are better ways to prevent stupid contact and rubbing.
For some yes... I have seen many get hosed from it.
Most of my races have not been in 13/13 enviroments and I can tell you in 6 years of racing I would have been sent home a few times for single car stuff where I was able to repair the car quickly and lose virtually no track time. Other times very on track contact would have sent one or both of us home, but without a 13/13 both driver could discuss the situation and resolve it without blame or fear of blame. Case in point in my event on that Saturday race. Rolling start down the main straight lined by walls on both sides. I am on the inside a few rows back. We go green and fan out a bit. One car 2 rows in front goes slow and the cars around me start avoiding. I have a run on a car in front and he pinches me torward the wall hard tring to avoid the slower car in front. I get squeezed between the wall and his car. We have a light touch of his rear tire to my front tire. No more damage than a dounut on my car and slightly dented fender. We both avoid further incident and have a great race. We talk about it after and bear no animosity torward each other. It was just one of those cases where crap happens we both did our best to clear the situation in front of us. I guess there could have been 13/13's passed around for that, but what would it have gained? He did nothing stupid, I did nothing stupid. I guess you could give 13 to the driver who missed the shift, but it turns out he had a mechanical issue anyway. So in the end we worked it out betweent the two of us and still had a great race the next day. I expect to see him out at the track this Saturday for our next race and have no issues racing next to him again.
So what benefit would there have been throwing a 13/13 around anyway.
04-04-2008, 10:40 AM
#13
Drifting
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The only tweaks that I'd like to see is a different approach on single car incidents (like the guy in front of me at RA who caught a tire in a deep puddle...spun and contacted the tire wall).
I've seen (and been part of) a lot of discussions about allowing for "racing incidents" between cars without a 13 but that's a huge gray area and would be very difficult to manage. I guess that's why it's so vital that we run cameras (which I do...front & rear).
I've seen (and been part of) a lot of discussions about allowing for "racing incidents" between cars without a 13 but that's a huge gray area and would be very difficult to manage. I guess that's why it's so vital that we run cameras (which I do...front & rear).
1. Single car incidents or secondary responsibility in multi-car incidents shall have a probation period of 3, 6, 9, or 13 months, at the discretion of the Competition Steward based upon the circumstances of the incident.
2. Primary responsibility in a multi-car incident shall result in a 13 month probation.
3. If a driver in any way responsible is already on probation, his competition privileges shall be suspended for 13 months.
4. At the discretion of the Competition Steward, any or all of the following penalties may be additionally imposed upon a driver found to be at fault:
a. Exclusion from competition for the remainder of the day or the event at which the incident occurs.
b. Suspension from his next home region BMW CCA Club Racing event in which he could have competed.
2. Primary responsibility in a multi-car incident shall result in a 13 month probation.
3. If a driver in any way responsible is already on probation, his competition privileges shall be suspended for 13 months.
4. At the discretion of the Competition Steward, any or all of the following penalties may be additionally imposed upon a driver found to be at fault:
a. Exclusion from competition for the remainder of the day or the event at which the incident occurs.
b. Suspension from his next home region BMW CCA Club Racing event in which he could have competed.
04-04-2008, 10:52 AM
#14
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As for the OP's question of "does it work"...I say absolutely.
When I'm racing BMW CCA, I know the drivers I can race close and those I can't. I have no problem going into a corner 12 inches from James Clay or Seth Thomas, while I'm probably going to leave 3 feet when it's a guy I don't know much about. I also leave a couple percent more margin for error as a general rule everywhere on the track. In 8+ seasons, I'm incident free so far, despite racing a car that is some 30+ seconds faster than the slowest car on track at certain venues.
On the other hand, I race differently outside of 13/13 racing. If I raced the same way in Spec Miata as I do in BMW CCA, I would get my **** handed to me. And I've certainly had incidents (single and multi-car) when racing Formula Mazda in SCCA National and Pro races where the competition is stiffer and you've gotta push the limits.
The 13/13 rule not only alters the way drivers who are capable of "dialing it up" or "dialing it down" drive, but it also serves to encourage less experienced drivers to really think about the chances they are going to take as they progress and learn race craft and weeds out those drivers who are completely and totally reckless. The 1-2 guys who believe that your rear bumper is a 2nd set of brakes and spinning is an acceptable passing method at any time and anywhere that seem to show up in most every non 13/13 amateur (and even sometimes Pro) series wouldn't last more than 2 events.
When I'm racing BMW CCA, I know the drivers I can race close and those I can't. I have no problem going into a corner 12 inches from James Clay or Seth Thomas, while I'm probably going to leave 3 feet when it's a guy I don't know much about. I also leave a couple percent more margin for error as a general rule everywhere on the track. In 8+ seasons, I'm incident free so far, despite racing a car that is some 30+ seconds faster than the slowest car on track at certain venues.
On the other hand, I race differently outside of 13/13 racing. If I raced the same way in Spec Miata as I do in BMW CCA, I would get my **** handed to me. And I've certainly had incidents (single and multi-car) when racing Formula Mazda in SCCA National and Pro races where the competition is stiffer and you've gotta push the limits.
The 13/13 rule not only alters the way drivers who are capable of "dialing it up" or "dialing it down" drive, but it also serves to encourage less experienced drivers to really think about the chances they are going to take as they progress and learn race craft and weeds out those drivers who are completely and totally reckless. The 1-2 guys who believe that your rear bumper is a 2nd set of brakes and spinning is an acceptable passing method at any time and anywhere that seem to show up in most every non 13/13 amateur (and even sometimes Pro) series wouldn't last more than 2 events.
